Author Topic: CSI and cadaver dogs - some facts and statistics.  (Read 69365 times)

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Offline Mr Gray

Re: CSI and cadaver dogs - some facts and statistics.
« Reply #195 on: May 08, 2015, 10:13:51 PM »
we don't know how reliable the dog's are...if no evidence is found there is no way of confirming the alert..

OxfordBloo

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Re: CSI and cadaver dogs - some facts and statistics.
« Reply #196 on: May 08, 2015, 10:14:29 PM »
Anyone want to explain why ACPO and the NPIA called cadaver dogs into question after Madeleine and Jersey, fearing they wasted police time?

http://news.sky.com/story/844071/sniffer-dogs-can-hinder-police-work


The dogs found evidence of dead bodies, but officers later discovered the corpses were nothing to do with her disappearance.

"The properties searched contained a high level of second-hand furniture bought from dwellings where someone had died," according to the NPIA report.

"This resulted in numerous indications that required further investigation to confirm whether they were connected to the investigation, or to previous owners of the furniture."

The Association of Chief Police Officers told Sky News it was consulting individual police forces and hoped to have national training standards for the dogs later this year.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: CSI and cadaver dogs - some facts and statistics.
« Reply #197 on: May 08, 2015, 10:30:15 PM »
There is no consistency in what the dogs can do and how it is done," the report states





Offline pathfinder73

Re: CSI and cadaver dogs - some facts and statistics.
« Reply #198 on: May 08, 2015, 10:43:13 PM »
Meanwhile, we were supposed to receive American electronic equipment that detects human bodies thanks to the odour that emanates from them (Scent Transfer Unit 100). But the equipment, blocked by customs, arrived late.  (TOTL)

In a study to evaluate the reliability of trained bloodhounds to identify and trail the scent of individual humans in high-traffic areas, eight bloodhounds completed five tests on 48-hour-old trails. Trails were in areas normally encountered in criminal casework—regional parks, college campuses, and urban environments. The trail layers came from different ethnic groups and ages, and trails ranged from .5 to 1.5 miles in length. Using scent pads collected with the Scent Transfer Unit-100 (STU-100), a vacuum-scent-collection device, five experienced bloodhound/handler teams had a success rate of 96 percent with no false identifications. Three novice bloodhound/handler teams had a 53 percent success rate and one false identification. False identifications are defined as an alert on a person whose scent was not present on the scent pad presented at the start of the trail (Harvey and Harvey 2003).

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/lab/forensic-science-communications/fsc/july2004/index.htm/research/2004_03_research03.htm
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline G-Unit

Re: CSI and cadaver dogs - some facts and statistics.
« Reply #199 on: May 08, 2015, 11:11:57 PM »
I am claiming ignorance- we do not know how accurate dogs are. They could be 100% they could be 50%, K just don't know.

Please provide evidence to convince me how I should decide. Meanwhile I shall continue to believe that WE DO NOT KNOW.

You're claiming ignorance now, but you seemed very certain earlier? all I have asked for is the basis for your statement below. What papers?

As all papers show an uncertainty of between 60% and 90% , no matter what the absolute value is
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Offline Anna

Re: CSI and cadaver dogs - some facts and statistics.
« Reply #200 on: May 09, 2015, 12:54:28 AM »
Interesting reading!

Pretrial+testimony+continues+in+Sam+Parker+murder+case&instance=home_news

It was decided The dogs evidence was not to be used in the trial

...................................................................................................


Dog experts testify

In Tuesday proceedings, Lisa Higgins with the Louisiana Search and Rescue Dog Team was the first to testify. Higgins retired from law enforcement after 30 years and continues to train search-and-rescue dogs.

Higgins said she brought her Australian shepherd named “Maggie” to search for Theresa Parker in April 2007. Maggie has been a certified cadaver dog since 2003 and is trained in searching for decomposed remains. Maggie lets her handlers know she has found decomposed remains by lying down near the scent.

On April 13, 2007, she and Maggie came to Walker County to search for Theresa Parker, she said. While investi-gating vehicles in the impound behind the Walker County Sheriff’s Office, Maggie picked up a scent of decomposing remains and sent an alert, by laying down, when she came across Teresa Parker’s Toyota Forerunner. Maggie also had a change of behavior when she picked up a scent along the rear passenger’s side of the vehicle.

In response to questions from the defense, Higgins said the scent picked up by Maggie is not necessarily human remains.

Assistant public defender Doug Woodruff asked Higgins if Maggie was infallible and Higgins replied, “No, sir.”

The second witness was Martin Grime of the United Kingdom. He is occasionally contracted by the U.S. govern-ment and is a qualified expert in cadaver dogs.

Grime displayed five videos of his search dog “Eddie,” trained to search for human decomposition. The videos, filmed at the LaFayette Police Department during September 2007, displayed the dog’s ability to pick up on alert scents and did not show any video of the dog searching for the remains of Teresa Parker.

On Sept. 20, 2007, Eddie and Grime traveled to Sam Parker’s residence at 95 Cordell Ave. in LaFayette for the dog to search the property.

During Woodruff’s questioning, Grime said Eddie was used to search the residence — inside, around and under-neath — and found nothing. But in the garage area, between a boat and a pickup truck, Eddie gave an alert of a scent.

Woodruff asked Grime why he did not search the pickup. Grime said that he only screened the areas he was asked to search and if there had been a scent, Eddie would have picked it up.

The courtroom became tense when Woodruff questioned Grime’s reading of the dog and their legitimacy, giving various hypothetical scenarios, such as the dog smelling food instead of remains. Grime replied, “I can’t predict the dog’s behavior. I study the dog’s behavior. You are trying to put words in my mouth and I don’t deal in hypotheti-cals.”



More about the cadaver dog debate...
http://www.newschannel9.com/news/dog-982846-send-life.html



"...We also saw video played in the courtroom to demonstrate how another dog, Eddie, found a sample pair of pants hidden in the Walker County Jail that was perfumed with a cadaver scent. Eddie is an English Springer Spaniel belonging to Martin Grime, a world-renown forensic K-9 expert based in the United Kingdom.

Grime testified he was paid $450 a day, plus travel and living expenses, by the FBI to search some areas in Walker County in connection with Teresa Parker's disappearance.

During a visit to Parker's home back in September 2007 Grime said he and Eddie sniffed around their garage.

"He immediately gave a positive bark response within the garage between a truck parked to the left of the entrance and a boat parked to the right," Grime said.

Grime added Eddie did not seem interested in the vehicles but in a scent that was wafting in the air, based on the way the dog held his nose upward. Grime said Eddie then "hit" on an abandoned house next door. Testimony shows that house was never repaired after a fire gutted the inside and killed a child several years ago.

During lengthy cross-examination Grime said there is no evidence to show Eddie smelled anything incriminating against or linked to Mr. Parker. Like Higgins, Grime said cadaver dogs can only prove useful when there is other evidence that corroborates the dog's "hits."

The FBI has a keen interest in the outcome of this case. If Parker is convicted the case could pave the legal way for future prosecutions where there is no evidence other than dog "hits" in connection with a person accused of murder.

Toward the end of the day Judge Wood learned that while Grime has international acclaim he has never testified as an expert witness in the United States.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=1001.85;wap2
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

OxfordBloo

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Re: CSI and cadaver dogs - some facts and statistics.
« Reply #201 on: May 09, 2015, 06:48:27 AM »
Interest f to see Grime questioned effectively.

Together with the doubts from APCO and the NPIA after PdL and Jersey about the efficacy and utility of Eddie in particular and VRD dogs in general expressed in the below article, I would suggest hat anyone trying to build a direct link between alerts and evidence has little solid ground to base their case on.

http://news.sky.com/story/844071/sniffer-dogs-can-hinder-police-work

By Gerard Tubb, Sky News correspondent

Police sniffer dogs used to find missing people and dead bodies "urgently" need better training and monitoring, according to an official report.





The Government's National Policing Improvement Agency (NPIA) said specialist victim recovery dogs are not trained to approved standards, with no way of gauging their competence.

The NPIA reviewed the use of the specialist sniffer dogs two years ago, but its report has only now surfaced following a request by Sky News.

"There is no consistency in what the dogs can do and how it is done," the report states.

"Furthermore, there is no national standard for accrediting dogs and handlers or record keeping of the success rate they achieve."

The report added the dogs, which are trained to detect the smell of dead bodies, have "the potential to cause complications in an inquiry".

"There is an urgent need to have national policy on their training, accreditation and deployment," it concluded.


The review uses a kidnap investigation to highlight how dogs have tied up valuable police time.

The animals detected human remains in old furniture that had been bought from houses where the owner had died.

The use of victim recovery, or cadaver dogs, has proved to be controversial in a number of high-profile cases in recent years.

A South Yorkshire Police spaniel called Eddie was said to have sniffed out the "scent of death" at the Haut de la Garenne children's home in Jersey and the apartment from which Madeleine McCann disappeared in Portugal.

But in both cases nothing more was found and South Yorkshire Police say Eddie is no longer working with them.


Victim recovery dogs from four different police forces were used during searches for kidnapped schoolgirl Shannon Matthews in Dewsbury in West Yorkshire in 2008.

The dogs found evidence of dead bodies, but officers later discovered the corpses were nothing to do with her disappearance.

"The properties searched contained a high level of second-hand furniture bought from dwellings where someone had died," according to the NPIA report.

"This resulted in numerous indications that required further investigation to confirm whether they were connected to the investigation, or to previous owners of the furniture."

The Association of Chief Police Officers told Sky News it was consulting individual police forces and hoped to have national training standards for the dogs later this year.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: CSI and cadaver dogs - some facts and statistics.
« Reply #202 on: May 09, 2015, 08:10:04 AM »
there is no evidence maddie died in the apartmnet...according to Grime

Offline G-Unit

Re: CSI and cadaver dogs - some facts and statistics.
« Reply #203 on: May 09, 2015, 08:29:25 AM »
there is no evidence maddie died in the apartmnet...according to Grime

There is no evidence that she was abducted.
There is no evidence that she woke and wandered.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2015, 01:05:39 PM by John »
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Offline Mr Gray

Re: CSI and cadaver dogs - some facts and statistics.
« Reply #204 on: May 09, 2015, 08:37:48 AM »
there is no evidence maddie died in the apartmnet...according to Grime

There is no evidence that she was abducted.
There is no evidence that she woke and wandered.

as this thread is about the dogs...the fact that maddie may still be alive shows that the alerts may be totally wrong
« Last Edit: May 09, 2015, 01:05:51 PM by John »

stephen25000

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Re: CSI and cadaver dogs - some facts and statistics.
« Reply #205 on: May 09, 2015, 08:41:51 AM »
as this thread is about the dogs...the fact that maddie may still be alive shows that the alerts may be totally wrong

So where is she dave, after 8 years, and unparalleled worldwide publicity ?

AND NOT ONE TRACE OF HER.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: CSI and cadaver dogs - some facts and statistics.
« Reply #206 on: May 09, 2015, 08:45:15 AM »
So where is she dave, after 8 years, and unparalleled worldwide publicity ?

AND NOT ONE TRACE OF HER.

so where is the proof she is dead...there is none

Offline Brietta

Re: CSI and cadaver dogs - some facts and statistics.
« Reply #207 on: May 09, 2015, 09:11:52 AM »
Under controlled test conditions observers know exactly where and what the test samples are. Great care is taken to avoid cross contamination.

The McCann apartment and hire car were unknown quantities open to all sorts of innocent interference. For example, the information leaked to the press about boot imprints which was designed to paint the McCanns in the poorest of lights ... but which had no connection to them at all.

We know previous occupants detailed events when there had been blood contamination, proving that innocent depositions unconnected to the McCann family had previously occurred, providing an explanation why forensic scientists found no evidence linking samples to the McCanns, because simply there was none.


"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline G-Unit

Re: CSI and cadaver dogs - some facts and statistics.
« Reply #208 on: May 09, 2015, 09:13:28 AM »
as this thread is about the dogs...the fact that maddie may still be alive shows that the alerts may be totally wrong

The fact that she may be dead shows that the alerts may be totally right,
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Offline Brietta

Re: CSI and cadaver dogs - some facts and statistics.
« Reply #209 on: May 09, 2015, 09:34:53 AM »
The fact that she may be dead shows that the alerts may be totally right,

The fact that she may have left the apartment alive shows that the alerts may be totally wrong.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....