Author Topic: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?  (Read 43154 times)

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Offline Carana

Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2015, 06:21:14 PM »
If there are voids under 5A, how can they be accessed? Do any services run through them? Where do the drainpipes from the bath, basin, toilet go? Do they go along above the floor to the outside, or do they go down through the floor?

Those are the questions that the architect could answer....

Offline Carana

Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2015, 06:25:03 PM »
And Misty has raised the issue of 5J several times...

Offline sadie

Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2015, 09:23:52 PM »
Correct Jassi,
 Where would the lift shaft and working be? Also all the plumbing and electrics for the block. I admit that door is not visible in any images showing access to this area, but it could be in a recess (understairs area etc)
 I really don't know. A lot of wasted space if not used for something.
I am not a lift engineer, but I think that you have to have a void under the lift shaft and also a void above it, for the workings and maintenance as Anna suggested.

I am happy to be corrected if I am wrong.

Offline Brietta

Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2015, 01:27:44 AM »

There are really serious omissions regarding interviewing people who may have been witnesses.

Mrs Fenn who lived in the apartment immediately above the McCann apartment, was not interviewed for months after the event.

The Moyes who were in the in the apartment immediately above Mrs Fenn were not interviewed at all.

Mr and Mrs Moyes if questioned properly had the potential to be able to give the police valuable information. 

They had been out for a meal and they had walked home.  They sat on their veranda overlooking the tapas restaurant from appx 9.15 pm until they went to bed.  They participated in the search.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline misty

Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2015, 02:06:00 AM »
There are really serious omissions regarding interviewing people who may have been witnesses.

Mrs Fenn who lived in the apartment immediately above the McCann apartment, was not interviewed for months after the event.

The Moyes who were in the in the apartment immediately above Mrs Fenn were not interviewed at all.

Mr and Mrs Moyes if questioned properly had the potential to be able to give the police valuable information. 

They had been out for a meal and they had walked home.  They sat on their veranda overlooking the tapas restaurant from appx 9.15 pm until they went to bed.  They participated in the search.

IMO Mrs Fenn was a crucial witness. She had been the victim of an attempted burglary in the days leading up to Madeleine's disappearance. Who had she told locally about this?
Furthermore, as the only permanent resident in Block 5 for periods of the year, she would have been aware of at least some of the comings & goings of people in nearby apartments & also familiar with certain staff routines.
I also wonder how long she spent on her balcony, surveying the scene below, after her brief exchange with Gerry?

Offline Brietta

Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2015, 11:53:56 AM »
IMO Mrs Fenn was a crucial witness. She had been the victim of an attempted burglary in the days leading up to Madeleine's disappearance. Who had she told locally about this?
Furthermore, as the only permanent resident in Block 5 for periods of the year, she would have been aware of at least some of the comings & goings of people in nearby apartments & also familiar with certain staff routines.
I also wonder how long she spent on her balcony, surveying the scene below, after her brief exchange with Gerry?

It wouldn't have been realistic for the police to knock on every door in Praia da Luz and certainly a major endeavour like that could not have been attempted in the golden hours immediately after Madeleine was reported missing.

I think it was remiss not to check in the first instance on the occupants of the premises in the immediate vicinity on the off chance they may have witnessed something relevant.  I think that should have been a priority to be dealt with as soon as personnel could be deployed to deal with it ... I agree that Mrs Fenn was a crucial witness as she strikes me as being a feisty woman who didn't miss much, her witness statement taken sympathetically in the immediate aftermath could have been very valuable indeed.  We'll never know.

I know that premises were checked and the occupants of some properties were spoken to ... it is difficult to know how systematic that may have been as there is nothing in the files available to us to give an indication.
Mrs Murat also collected statements independently ... of which again there is no record in the files to which we have access.

Is it possible the footsoldiers' notes (we know there are files we have not seen) from these searches were properly collated in the scoping exercise and form part of the information which should have been investigated at the time but was not, and provided missing pieces of the jigsaw which justified reopening the investigation into Madeleine McCann's disappearance?

"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline sadie

Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2015, 01:04:50 PM »
The sightings in the Porto area SHOULD have been investigated but appear not have been.

There were several sightings.


Also several youngsters were stranger abducted in the Porto region.


According to reports, now whooshed (!), the son of an Elite was taken and not charged, but given warnings.   All abductions ceased in the Porto/ Guimares region.   [I am not the only person that read about this.  Catkins from Myths read about it too]

Four years later, abductions started in the PdL / Algarve region.
-  Joana Cipriano disappeared, just 7 miles from PdL.  Sept 2004
-  Carolina Santos was abducted from nearby Silves, but soooo fortunately rescued by her parents before she finally vanished around the corner.  She was walking, hand in hand, with a man who said that he would take her to play with some children.   Christmas Day 2006
What a lucky girl.  What a lucky family.  She was rescued.

Madeleine Mccann.  Less than 5 months after the failed attempt at Carolina, Madeleine vanished in PdL


All these little girls aged between 3 and 7/8. 
All very pretty
All blonde
All with links to Jewish names
All within an area of about 18 miles
All within a period of less than 3 years of each other.

And following on from the Northern Abduction period after a gap of just about 4 years after them.


The Elite having links with the Algarve area around PdL as well as the Porto region

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2015, 01:08:11 PM »
The sightings in the Porto area SHOULD have been investigated but appear not have been.

There were several sightings.


Also several youngsters were stranger abducted in the Porto region.


According to reports, now whooshed (!), the son of an Elite was taken and not charged, but given warnings.   All abductions ceased in the Porto/ Guimares region.   [I am not the only person that read about this.  Catkins from Myths read about it too]

Four years later, abductions started in the PdL / Algarve region.
-  Joana Cipriano disappeared, just 7 miles from PdL.  Sept 2004
-  Carolina Santos was abducted from nearby Silves, but soooo fortunately rescued by her parents before she finally vanished around the corner.  She was walking, hand in hand, with a man who said that he would take her to play with some children.   Christmas Day 2006
What a lucky girl.  What a lucky family.  She was rescued.

Madeleine Mccann.  Less than 5 months after the failed attempt at Carolina, Madeleine vanished in PdL


All these little girls aged between 3 and 7/8. 
All very pretty
All blonde
All with links to Jewish names
All within an area of about 18 miles
All within a period of less than 3 years of each other.

And following on from the Northern Abduction period after a gap of just about 4 years after them.


The Elite having links with the Algarve area around PdL as well as the Porto region


 &%&£(+ &%&£(+ &%&£(+

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2015, 01:09:58 PM »
I am not a lift engineer, but I think that you have to have a void under the lift shaft and also a void above it, for the workings and maintenance as Anna suggested.

I am happy to be corrected if I am wrong.
Some have pits at the bottom some don't there is always a space above the car on the top stop.
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline pathfinder73

Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2015, 01:15:15 PM »
SC: Humm... this garage belonged to a Portuguese man, the man from the laundry.

DCF: Yes.

SC: And when we entered the garage I asked who lived there, he replied that his son lived there and then there were distractions and because I was concentrated on the fifty year old English man, this man is Portuguese, it was only afterwards when I thought later about what we were searching for, it didn't occur to me and I think it is because of this that i mentioned it in my statement two weeks later, because I remember that there had been some distortions.

DCF: Fine, now (inaudible) describe the Portuguese man, the laundry man to me, yes'

SC: Yes.
I am certain that I read about this at the beginning, which (inaudible)' I think that afterwards, and afterwards coincides with the fact that he was the man from the laundry and of the van parked there, because as i have already explained, we were here in a small street here above which linked to the main road and to everything beside here on top, the rest was all pathways and I remember that on two or three occasions I thought...this is a dead end road, the van was parked there, I never saw anyone and more than once assumed that it would be cleaning staff and only this thought coincided with the presence of the man from the laundry, and if there were any reply to be made in relation to the link between the van parked there and the laundry man.

DCF: Of what age did the laundry man appear to be'

SC: Humm, I do not remember clearly what I said, but obviously at times Europeans appear older than they are, because of

DCF...(inaudible) the sun.

SC: Yes with the sun, that was what I said in the statement (inaudible).

DCF: I am going to try to locate the first pages where it was mentioned, but there is no description.

SC: Forty five to fifty years old, I think.

DCF: I'm just trying to think what age the man would be, it is difficult to say for the man that I saw, but he would have been of an age that implied that he could have a small child living in the garage or it could be expected that the had a grown up child.

SC: Oh, I think he would have been about, you know.... eighteen years, twenty or twenty two years old to live in the back of a garage because it had large cupboards and other things, but to live in a garage would mean that he had to be eighteen or more, because of a question of safety and because it was not the best way to live.

DCF: No. Then as you say the children's toys seemed to you to be out of context'

SC: Yes, yes.

DCF: Yes.

SC: Yes, mainly because I would think of someone aged eighteen or slightly more.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN-CARPENTER.htm

Witness Statement

Date: 2007/05/08

Mario Fernando Madeira Marreiros

Occupation: Laundry worker


Place of Work: OC

He has worked at the OC since the 5th March 2007 as a laundry worker as well as the driver of the laundry vehicles of the resort, delivering and collecting laundry (towels and sheets) from the apartments that make up the resort.

With relation to the events being investigated he states that on 4th May 2007, upon arriving at work at about 10.00 he saw that next to an apartment block there were various cars and police as well as members of the press, which he found strange.

Later, when he arrived at his place of work he was informed by colleagues that this "apparatus" was due to the disappearance of a little girl who had been staying at the resort.

He was informed that the girl was three years old, of British nationality and he observed that posters with her photograph and details were already up, with indications to follow in the case of information about her disappearance.

When questioned he said that he did not know the girl or her family, only having heard about them after the event.

When questioned about the day of the disappearance (03 May 2007) of the girl whose name he does not remember, he says he carried out his normal routine, arriving at his place of work at about 10.00, with a lunch break from 13.00 to 14.30, returning to work until 18.00. After work he returned home where he stayed with his wife until 21.30 when he went alone by car to Barao de Sao Joao, where his step son works.

After having picked up his step son he returned home where he stayed until the following day when he left for work.

He only knew about the events from the press and from his colleagues.

He knows nothing more apart from that the girl was on holiday with her family and twin siblings as he was informed later.

He does not know of anything suspicious that could be related to the events.

Reads, ratifies, signs

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARIO_MARREIROS.htm

A Portuguese laundry worker who was working at the resort from where Madeleine McCann disappeared has this week spoken about a “weird” stranger lurking in a dark stairwell a day earlier.

Mário Fernando Madeira Marreiros (47) told the Mirror this week that his testimony was ignored by Portuguese investigators.

He says he made the sighting the night before Madeleine’s disappearance as he went to collect dirty laundry.

“I saw the weird guy and we nearly bumped into each other. He was embarrassed. He looked nervous.” 

Mário Fernando continues that the man had “a really fat face” and that he wore “two-tone sunglasses”.

There was no reason for him to be there and no reason to wear the glasses as it was dark under the stairs”, he told the Mirror.

“My theory is that guy must have been involved, either in the kidnapping or studying what to do – their movements.”

The divorcee has urged British detectives to contact him.

In his initial testimony given five days after her disappearance, and which is available at http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARIO_MARREIROS.htm  he told investigators that he did not know “of anything suspicious that could be related to the events.”

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/73may13/Portugal_29_05_2013.htm





With regard to where I was at 18.00, whom I was with and the fact that I was seen by a witness at this time next to stairs and lift of block 5 of the Ocean Club:
I am not certain where I was at 18.00. It is possible that I was already in my apartment or returning from the bar. In order to arrive at my apartment I would walk along the side of the pool, crossing the stairs of block 4. If I were with someone, this person would be Raj, but as I have already said I do not remember whether I returned with him or before him. I do not remember having seen a lift in any of the apartment blocks. I was not in block 5, but had to pass by it in order to arrive at my apartment. It is possible that I was on the other side of the street opposite block five.

With relation to one of the Ocean Club employees having passed close by:
I do not remember having seen Ocean Club staff collecting dirty laundry at this hour.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/NEIL_BERRY.htm

From the Letter of Request:

VIII - Interview to NEIL BERRY, 42, MeXXXXXXXX ROXX, Surrey, SMX 7XX. He should be subject to a buccal swab and hair sample collection and asked the following questions :

 At about 6.00 p.m., in particular, where were you ? Who were you with ?

* Considering the fact that you were seen by a witness, clarify what you were doing at that time next to the stairs leading to the upper floor , which are located next to the lift of Block 5 at the Ocean Club, i.e. not far from the apartment from where Madeleine McCann went missing ?

* On that occasion, did you actually pass by an Ocean Club employee that went there to pick up laundry ?

* If yes, what was the reaction like and why ?
« Last Edit: June 16, 2015, 01:26:19 PM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline sadie

Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2015, 02:26:04 PM »
&%&£(+ &%&£(+ &%&£(+
You make me laugh stephen

Disprove any point that I have made.  You cant because they are fact.



But ever, as usual stephen, you decry anything that points to Madeleine having been abducted .... even where their are multiople clues/ pointers.


Amarals crew SHOULD Have looked at all these previous missing children
Surely as PJ Officers they would be aware of the Elite in Porto being let off with a warning.
Surely as PJ they would know of his links with PdL and the Western Algarve.
Surely they should have looked closely at the sightings grouped together, up in the Porto region?


We were never alerted to the Porto region sightings and the missing children, both in Porto and the PdL area.    It was almost as tho they were being hidden.


I wonder why?


And I wonder why Processos 809 [written en site in Porto with full Police sources] became corrupted by Portimao PJ  in processos 807-808.?



Mkae sure that you only use processos 809, folk.   That has the original pure facts in it.   The other is full of mis/disinformation ..... and is written by Portimao PJ, down in the Algarve about stuff up in Porto, 300 miles away ... Additionally it was written after processos 809, but given an earlier number... for some strange reason  &%+((£

Offline pegasus

Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
« Reply #26 on: June 16, 2015, 04:55:36 PM »
Some have pits at the bottom some don't there is always a space above the car on the top stop.
There is a lift engine room above the top floor of apartments you can see it in photos

Offline mercury

Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2015, 11:47:14 PM »
K McCann was not interviewed on 10 May as were others of the group. This was a grave  mistake and also testament to the fact that the PJ could not have suspected her at the time as is so often pushed as fact.

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2015, 11:54:01 PM »
K McCann was not interviewed on 10 May as were others of the group. This was a grave  mistake and also testament to the fact that the PJ could not have suspected her at the time as is so often pushed as fact.
So Amaral was lying when he wrote in his book that he already began to suspect the parents of something on the morning of the 4th May was he?

Offline Brietta

Re: What/where should have been investigated,but was not?
« Reply #29 on: June 21, 2015, 12:35:30 AM »
K McCann was not interviewed on 10 May as were others of the group. This was a grave  mistake and also testament to the fact that the PJ could not have suspected her at the time as is so often pushed as fact.


He makes mention throughout of suspicions from day one ... Kate asking to see a priest seemed to set the cat among the pigeons ... he formulated his theory, and he stubbornly stuck to it.
So I would say, taking that into consideration, that there were very many investigative oversights as a direct result.


Quote
From the start of the investigation, we realised that certain things did not add up and yet, they continued to benefit from favourable treatment; that's what's not normal!

From Chapter 1
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....