Author Topic: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?  (Read 21362 times)

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Offline Carana

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #135 on: July 14, 2015, 07:57:43 PM »
Were they with her when she searched ?

This is my best attempt to work out the events of that evening. subject to change if I find other details, but it seems to be more or less the gist:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2853.msg255186#msg255186

Offline Anna

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #136 on: July 14, 2015, 08:10:45 PM »
Were they with her when she searched ?

The shop lady was and then another brother of Leonor met up with Leonor, Leandro and leandro's friend. The GNR officer was met sometime after midnight and Leonor spoke to him about her missing daughter.
There is only media reports and statements to go on, Stephen.
If you are interested I will see what I can find, but there is an awful lot of information already on here. Try doing a couple of searches.

15 sep 2004 cm
 "She is a young girl quiet, docile and very understanding" ,she stressed to the CM Ofélia Zepherin, owner of the coffee shop where the child was fetching the milk and the cans of tuna, before disappearing (two people say she was seen next to the church) on the way back to the house, pointing out that "in the village everyone is worried about it and with fear of what might have happened to her, even because you never noted a case like this".  Ofélia Zepherin helped, in fact, the family trying to find the child, on the night in which she gave the disappearance, retracing the surroundings, including searching for to finds her among the people that were at the party that was happening in the village. As the searches had no results, on the same night was called the GNR. Other inhabitants pointed out, however, the desire for everything to be clarified, so that the quiet is back to the village.
http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/nacional/portugal/crianca-desaparecida

“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #137 on: July 14, 2015, 08:23:43 PM »
The shop lady was and then another brother of Leonor met up with Leonor, Leandro and leandro's friend. The GNR officer was met sometime after midnight and Leonor spoke to him about her missing daughter.
There is only media reports and statements to go on, Stephen.
If you are interested I will see what I can find, but there is an awful lot of information already on here. Try doing a couple of searches.

15 sep 2004 cm
 "She is a young girl quiet, docile and very understanding" ,she stressed to the CM Ofélia Zepherin, owner of the coffee shop where the child was fetching the milk and the cans of tuna, before disappearing (two people say she was seen next to the church) on the way back to the house, pointing out that "in the village everyone is worried about it and with fear of what might have happened to her, even because you never noted a case like this".  Ofélia Zepherin helped, in fact, the family trying to find the child, on the night in which she gave the disappearance, retracing the surroundings, including searching for to finds her among the people that were at the party that was happening in the village. As the searches had no results, on the same night was called the GNR. Other inhabitants pointed out, however, the desire for everything to be clarified, so that the quiet is back to the village.
http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/nacional/portugal/crianca-desaparecida

In the end it comes down to what the judges believed or didn't believe.

A while ago I found a link stating that relatives of the prisoners claimed that some of the prisoners attacked/tortured Cipriano, yet if I recall correctly, that was not used in court.

I will have a look for that tomorrow.

Meanwhile time to relax.

Have a good evening.

Offline Anna

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #138 on: July 14, 2015, 08:33:36 PM »
In the end it comes down to what the judges believed or didn't believe.

A while ago I found a link stating that relatives of the prisoners claimed that some of the prisoners attacked/tortured Cipriano, yet if I recall correctly, that was not used in court.

I will have a look for that tomorrow.

Meanwhile time to relax.

Have a good evening.

And you Stephen
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline Carana

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #139 on: July 15, 2015, 11:21:14 AM »
We had an interesting thread on forensics that I'd completely forgotten about:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3050.0

Offline Carana

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #140 on: July 15, 2015, 12:52:57 PM »
Can someone help with the logic of this?


On the other hand, the actions that are part of the reconstitution act are compatible with the blood traces that were collected in the living room (it should be noted that the reconstitution takes place in the living room), as a result of the search and apprehension act that was carried out on the 22th of September 2004 (cfr. pages 173 and 233 and following), which mentions that traces were collected on the floor, near the entrance door, inside and outside, near the interior electrical switch on the right hand side of the entrance door, near the entrance on the left hand side of the sofa, on a pair of trainers belonging to MM [Leandro] Silva that were located between the sofas, on a mop (handle) and its bucket.

These traces, according to forensics exams, are of human blood and of human and animal blood (cfr. page 235), and although insufficient to establish whom they belong to through the DNA (pages 1780 and following), they reveal that something terrible happened in that living room, something that originated the existence of human blood on the floor and on the walls, which was cleaned with a mop and a bucket; the blood that was on the mop was located on the handle, revealing that the person who used the mop had in turn his or her hands dirty with blood. Therefore, the traces that were collected in the living room reinforce the reliability of the reconstitution.

(courtesy Joana / Astro for translation).


Por outro lado, os actos que constam do auto de reconstituição são compatíveis com os vestígios hemáticos recolhidos na sala (repare-se que a reconstituição tem lugar na sala), como resulta do auto de busca e apreensão efectuado em 22.9.2004 (cfr. fls. 173 e 233 ss), onde consta que foram recolhidos vestígios no chão, junto à porta de entrada, exterior e interiormente, junto ao interruptor eléctrico interior à direita da porta de entrada, junto à entrada do lado esquerdo do sofá, num par de ténis de MM Silva que se encontrava entre os sofás, numa esfregona (haste) e respectivo balde. Estes vestígios, segundo perícias efectuadas, são de sangue humano e de sangue humano e animal (cfr. fls. 235), e embora fossem insuficientes para averiguar a quem pertencem através do ADN (fls. 1780 ss), são reveladores de que naquela sala aconteceu algo terrível, algo que deu origem a que houvesse sangue humano no chão e nas paredes, que foram limpos com uma esfregona e balde, sendo que o sangue que estava na esfregona se encontrava na haste, revelador que quem utilizou a esfregona tinha por sua vez as mãos sujas de sangue. Assim, os vestígios recolhidos na sala vêm reforçar a fiabilidade da reconstituição.

source: Supreme Court ruling.


Yet, according to the only reliable source that I've found, João's "reconstruction" didn't take place until 7 October.

7 October 04 - reconstruction
A 7 de Outubro de 2004, a Polícia Judiciária
leva o tio da criança a fazer uma reconstituição do crime, onde este, sendo filmado, explica detalhadamente
como a criança morreu e o seu cadáver foi cortado.

http://www.aps.pt/vicongresso/pdfs/700.pdf

Unless the author, a well-known Portuguese sociologist, somehow made a mistake in the date of this "reconstruction", it happened weeks after the PJ flashed a black torch around as a forensic inspection, with presumably a toolkit to test for blood, as that took place on 22 September.

On face value, Therefore, the traces that were collected in the living room reinforce the reliability of the reconstitution. reads as if the reconstruction took place first and THEN the forensic people went to check if it was feasible... and their subsequent forensic analysis to check whether this "spontaneous" attempt to establish the truth gave credence to this "confession" via reconstruction.

My problem is that, unless there's a mistake in the timeline, the PJ flashed a torch around, and did tests in situ to establish presence of blood, PRIOR to this "reconstruction"...




« Last Edit: July 15, 2015, 01:02:01 PM by Carana »

Offline John

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #141 on: July 15, 2015, 01:18:53 PM »
Her friend from the café went to help and after all relatives etc had been checked, she phoned the police.
Leonor did report it to a GNR officer whilst they were out searching. He told her to go to the office the following day.

Was that not the officer who spoke to the shop owner on the phone who told her to tell Leonor to call at the GNR post later that morning if Joana didn't reappear?
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Anna

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #142 on: July 15, 2015, 01:27:51 PM »
Can someone help with the logic of this?


On the other hand, the actions that are part of the reconstitution act are compatible with the blood traces that were collected in the living room (it should be noted that the reconstitution takes place in the living room), as a result of the search and apprehension act that was carried out on the 22th of September 2004 (cfr. pages 173 and 233 and following), which mentions that traces were collected on the floor, near the entrance door, inside and outside, near the interior electrical switch on the right hand side of the entrance door, near the entrance on the left hand side of the sofa, on a pair of trainers belonging to MM [Leandro] Silva that were located between the sofas, on a mop (handle) and its bucket.

These traces, according to forensics exams, are of human blood and of human and animal blood (cfr. page 235), and although insufficient to establish whom they belong to through the DNA (pages 1780 and following), they reveal that something terrible happened in that living room, something that originated the existence of human blood on the floor and on the walls, which was cleaned with a mop and a bucket; the blood that was on the mop was located on the handle, revealing that the person who used the mop had in turn his or her hands dirty with blood. Therefore, the traces that were collected in the living room reinforce the reliability of the reconstitution.

(courtesy Joana / Astro for translation).


Por outro lado, os actos que constam do auto de reconstituição são compatíveis com os vestígios hemáticos recolhidos na sala (repare-se que a reconstituição tem lugar na sala), como resulta do auto de busca e apreensão efectuado em 22.9.2004 (cfr. fls. 173 e 233 ss), onde consta que foram recolhidos vestígios no chão, junto à porta de entrada, exterior e interiormente, junto ao interruptor eléctrico interior à direita da porta de entrada, junto à entrada do lado esquerdo do sofá, num par de ténis de MM Silva que se encontrava entre os sofás, numa esfregona (haste) e respectivo balde. Estes vestígios, segundo perícias efectuadas, são de sangue humano e de sangue humano e animal (cfr. fls. 235), e embora fossem insuficientes para averiguar a quem pertencem através do ADN (fls. 1780 ss), são reveladores de que naquela sala aconteceu algo terrível, algo que deu origem a que houvesse sangue humano no chão e nas paredes, que foram limpos com uma esfregona e balde, sendo que o sangue que estava na esfregona se encontrava na haste, revelador que quem utilizou a esfregona tinha por sua vez as mãos sujas de sangue. Assim, os vestígios recolhidos na sala vêm reforçar a fiabilidade da reconstituição.

source: Supreme Court ruling.


Yet, according to the only reliable source that I've found, João's "reconstruction" didn't take place until 7 October.

7 October 04 - reconstruction
A 7 de Outubro de 2004, a Polícia Judiciária
leva o tio da criança a fazer uma reconstituição do crime, onde este, sendo filmado, explica detalhadamente
como a criança morreu e o seu cadáver foi cortado.

http://www.aps.pt/vicongresso/pdfs/700.pdf

Unless the author, a well-known Portuguese sociologist, somehow made a mistake in the date of this "reconstruction", it happened weeks after the PJ flashed a black torch around as a forensic inspection, with presumably a toolkit to test for blood, as that took place on 22 September.

On face value, Therefore, the traces that were collected in the living room reinforce the reliability of the reconstitution. reads as if the reconstruction took place first and THEN the forensic people went to check if it was feasible... and their subsequent forensic analysis to check whether this "spontaneous" attempt to establish the truth gave credence to this "confession" via reconstruction.

My problem is that, unless there's a mistake in the timeline, the PJ flashed a torch around, and did tests in situ to establish presence of blood, PRIOR to this "reconstruction"...

PJ had the forensic team in on the 22nd sep and Leonor was being interrogated all that day in Faro. Leandro and his sister were also there(in the house) and questioned.
The reconstruction of the killing etc was after this.
Leonor confessed to accidental death on 24th(Day after the bleeding incident?) and was summoned to magistrate on early hours of 25th . She was then interrogated more before being taken to the prison.




That is from the media, Carana.
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline John

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #143 on: July 15, 2015, 01:43:04 PM »
Joana's stepfather Leandro Silva certainly believes that João Cipriano was capable of just about anything, he states as much in his interview with the Algarve Press.

Certainly, the last statement given by Leonor in 2009 claims that it was her brother João who took the girl away.

Reading between the lines there appears to be several possibilities and each one involves Leonor, João or both of them.  It also appears, according to Leandro, that Joana had been at risk from sexual exploitation and had in fact been examined in hospital in respect of this allegation.  The finding of sperm in Joana's underwear after her disappearance is forensic evidence which again supports these allegations.  Just what the hell was that little girl exposed to?

Leandro also states that Joana was becoming increasingly aggressive towards her mother and was apt to swear at her.  Was Joana beginning to realise that what was being done to her was not normal?   Did she threaten to expose her abuser and was murdered to keep her quiet?

Did Leonor agree to take part in a cover up and the reconstitution in order to protect João believing that if she admitted to having accidentally killed the child that she would get a reduced sentence whereas if he admitted assault with his record that he would get a much heavier sentence?
« Last Edit: July 15, 2015, 02:08:20 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Carana

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #144 on: July 15, 2015, 02:29:09 PM »
Thanks.

My issue at the moment is that the so-called confessions may have been made to coincide with the scenario imagined on the basis of having already waved the black torch around and discovering that there were at least a few traces of human blood. I find that to be somewhat akin to getting Amanda Knox to "remember" Lumumba after interminable hours of interrogation and what basicly amounts to brainwashing.

On the other hand, from the other perspective, my view would be completely different if someone really did confess to where a body had been hidden, for example in an unkown location that the police had never thought to search, but then went and discovered a body exactly where the suspect had said it was, with details that had never been revealed to the suspect or leaked to the public.

Offline Carana

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #145 on: July 15, 2015, 02:49:33 PM »


Did Leonor agree to take part in a cover up and the reconstitution in order to protect João believing that if she admitted to having accidentally killed the child that she would get a reduced sentence whereas if he admitted assault with his record that he would get a much heavier sentence?

This point first... I can see no reason for her to protect him. All either of them have done is to shift the blame onto each other.

That could be because a) both are involved, b) a fishing expedition in which one is led to believe that the other is falsely accusing them and over-reacts, accusing the other c) there is in fact some probative evidence, which isn't the case in this instance.


Offline Anna

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #146 on: July 15, 2015, 02:53:31 PM »
Thanks.

My issue at the moment is that the so-called confessions may have been made to coincide with the scenario imagined on the basis of having already waved the black torch around and discovering that there were at least a few traces of human blood. I find that to be somewhat akin to getting Amanda Knox to "remember" Lumumba after interminable hours of interrogation and what basicly amounts to brainwashing.

On the other hand, from the other perspective, my view would be completely different if someone really did confess to where a body had been hidden, for example in an unkown location that the police had never thought to search, but then went and discovered a body exactly where the suspect had said it was, with details that had never been revealed to the suspect or leaked to the public.

My thoughts too, Carana.
Make the crime fit the scene.

Although I do believe that Joao was capable of committing a crime to feed his habit, I am not too sure that he was involved. However on saying that, I am more inclined to believe the story that was told by Leonor.....That he followed Joanna out and returned a short time later. The rest may be what she thought had occurred, rather than what actually did.
She was so vulnerable and was accustomed to doing whatever was asked of her, by the sound of it.
I also think that she was afraid of Joao.
She was gentle and very immature, whilst he was violent and didn't care who he accused as long as it was for his benefit. (His own mother thought him capable of killing Joana)
He accused his brother and Leandro's family of being involved. He also accused his brother in another crime that he had committed.
Why was Leonor the main suspect, when she had no criminal record? I really think that women are blamed more easily in Portugal.......Weaker sex? Easier to manipulate?
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline Carana

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #147 on: July 15, 2015, 03:20:00 PM »
Joana's stepfather Leandro Silva certainly believes that João Cipriano was capable of just about anything, he states as much in his interview with the Algarve Press.

Certainly, the last statement given by Leonor in 2009 claims that it was her brother João who took the girl away.

Reading between the lines there appears to be several possibilities and each one involves Leonor, João or both of them.  It also appears, according to Leandro, that Joana had been at risk from sexual exploitation and had in fact been examined in hospital in respect of this allegation.  The finding of sperm in Joana's underwear after her disappearance is forensic evidence which again supports these allegations.  Just what the hell was that little girl exposed to?

Leandro also states that Joana was becoming increasingly aggressive towards her mother and was apt to swear at her.  Was Joana beginning to realise that what was being done to her was not normal?   Did she threaten to expose her abuser and was murdered to keep her quiet?

Did Leonor agree to take part in a cover up and the reconstitution in order to protect João believing that if she admitted to having accidentally killed the child that she would get a reduced sentence whereas if he admitted assault with his record that he would get a much heavier sentence?

On the potential sexual abuse issue... no idea. It all seems to be a bit of a shambles, with very little that seems verifiable.

- According to some accounts, MM had unprotected sex with his girlfriend on either Joana's bed, or one nearby. Did the forensics do a DNA test to verify?

- Then, there's a story about semen found on her knickers, which was never identified, but could have been contamination due to general laundry being stuffed in the same basket.

- And, there's this somewhat odd justification... that it would have cost €10,000 for a test, which was too much and was therefore never done.

A DNA test doesn't cost €10k, surely?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3050.msg114919#msg114919


I have no idea whether any test for semen ever turned up positive on her knickers or not... nor whether this was ever more than rumour, or whether it was another mistaken test for other fluids. So far, it seems to be one of those nebulous aspects that were never quite clarified.

if a child's knickers had been found in isolation with only her DNA and semen of a male, that would indeed be suspicious. In this case, however, a child's knickers in a laundry basket with that of several adults could reveal semen (or any body fluid mistakenly assumed to be such) in a mix that would be impossible to isolate.

« Last Edit: July 15, 2015, 03:24:02 PM by Carana »

Offline Anna

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #148 on: July 15, 2015, 03:23:30 PM »
Joana's stepfather Leandro Silva certainly believes that João Cipriano was capable of just about anything, he states as much in his interview with the Algarve Press.

Certainly, the last statement given by Leonor in 2009 claims that it was her brother João who took the girl away.

Reading between the lines there appears to be several possibilities and each one involves Leonor, João or both of them.  It also appears, according to Leandro, that Joana had been at risk from sexual exploitation and had in fact been examined in hospital in respect of this allegation.  The finding of sperm in Joana's underwear after her disappearance is forensic evidence which again supports these allegations.  Just what the hell was that little girl exposed to?

Leandro also states that Joana was becoming increasingly aggressive towards her mother and was apt to swear at her.  Was Joana beginning to realise that what was being done to her was not normal?   Did she threaten to expose her abuser and was murdered to keep her quiet?

Did Leonor agree to take part in a cover up and the reconstitution in order to protect João believing that if she admitted to having accidentally killed the child that she would get a reduced sentence whereas if he admitted assault with his record that he would get a much heavier sentence?

I think it is more than likely that she was afraid of him. He was a complete opposite to her in his personality.
If he was involved, he would have demanded in a threatening manner, in the same way that he warned Leandro,  the day after the disappearance...........The same day that he done a runner.
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline Carana

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #149 on: July 15, 2015, 03:32:00 PM »
My thoughts too, Carana.
Make the crime fit the scene.

Although I do believe that Joao was capable of committing a crime to feed his habit, I am not too sure that he was involved. However on saying that, I am more inclined to believe the story that was told by Leonor.....That he followed Joanna out and returned a short time later. The rest may be what she thought had occurred, rather than what actually did.
She was so vulnerable and was accustomed to doing whatever was asked of her, by the sound of it.
I also think that she was afraid of Joao.
She was gentle and very immature, whilst he was violent and didn't care who he accused as long as it was for his benefit. (His own mother thought him capable of killing Joana)
He accused his brother and Leandro's family of being involved. He also accused his brother in another crime that he had committed.
Why was Leonor the main suspect, when she had no criminal record? I really think that women are blamed more easily in Portugal.......Weaker sex? Easier to manipulate?

No idea. He may indeed have been a black sheep, but possibly also someone with a learning disability which made him the scapegoat when he found himself in the wrong place at the wrong time.

The family had no problem pointing the finger at him as a possible culprit... but then they were nearly all arguidos as well. He was the vagrant, whereas the others had their own nuclear families to protect. He was known to have used drugs, allegedly, and he had a conviction for violence, although I've never found what the evidence was in that case.