Author Topic: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?  (Read 21268 times)

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Offline Anna

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #150 on: July 15, 2015, 03:34:59 PM »
On the potential sexual abuse issue... no idea. It all seems to be a bit of a shambles, with very little that seems verifiable.

- According to some accounts, MM had unprotected sex with his girlfriend on either Joana's bed, or one nearby. Did the forensics do a DNA test to verify?

- Then, there's a story about semen found on her knickers, which was never identified, but could have been contamination due to general laundry being stuffed in the same basket.

- And, there's this somewhat odd justification... that it would have cost €10,000 for a test, which was too much and was therefore never done.

A DNA test doesn't cost €10k, surely?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3050.msg114919#msg114919


I have no idea whether any test for semen ever turned up positive on her knickers or not... nor whether this was ever more than rumour, or whether it was another mistaken test for other fluids. So far, it seems to be one of those nebulous aspects that were never quite clarified.

if a child's knickers had been found in isolation with only her DNA and semen of a male, that would indeed be suspicious. In this case, however, a child's knickers in a laundry basket with that of several adults could reveal semen (or any body fluid mistakenly assumed to be such) in a mix that would be impossible to isolate.

Nothing was found to verify this and Without checking back, I don't believe that it got a mention in the re-trial
It was a threat IMO to get Leandro and other defendants  to say what they wanted them to say........No bruises, a saw, a knife, shopping in the house(no receipt)  All (after the court case) statements from Leandro in Press articles have denied the reports of the first court case.
Where I must add all the defendants became witnesses instead and testified against Leonor.
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline Carana

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #151 on: July 15, 2015, 03:38:04 PM »
I think it is more than likely that she was afraid of him. He was a complete opposite to her in his personality.
If he was involved, he would have demanded in a threatening manner, in the same way that he warned Leandro,  the day after the disappearance...........The same day that he done a runner.

I don't think so, Anna.

He may have been one of those pain-in-the-ass relatives who turn up on your doorstep.

If Leonor had thought that he was going to be violent in any way, why would she have left him at home to babysit the younger kids while she went off to join the others to ask if anyone had seen Joana?

It would have been more sensible to send him off again and stay at home herself. Or not have let him into the house in the first place.

Offline Anna

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #152 on: July 15, 2015, 03:42:28 PM »
No idea. He may indeed have been a black sheep, but possibly also someone with a learning disability which made him the scapegoat when he found himself in the wrong place at the wrong time.

The family had no problem pointing the finger at him as a possible culprit... but then they were nearly all arguidos as well. He was the vagrant, whereas the others had their own nuclear families to protect. He was known to have used drugs, allegedly, and he had a conviction for violence, although I've never found what the evidence was in that case.

IIRC, Carana, He had two younger brothers in prison.

Two of Joao's brothers were defendants and a sister, Leandro, his stepbrother, his friend and a sister? were also defendants. They wanted his mother, but it was dropped. I believe seven in all not including, Leonor and Joao


“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline Anna

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #153 on: July 15, 2015, 03:48:20 PM »
I don't think so, Anna.

He may have been one of those pain-in-the-ass relatives who turn up on your doorstep.

If Leonor had thought that he was going to be violent in any way, why would she have left him at home to babysit the younger kids while she went off to join the others to ask if anyone had seen Joana?

It would have been more sensible to send him off again and stay at home herself. Or not have let him into the house in the first place.

Maybe he refused to go out searching. Leandro asked her to go and search with them..............
Between the devil and the deep blue sea?

Sensible doesn't come into it......................Does it?
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline Carana

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #154 on: July 15, 2015, 03:55:34 PM »
Maybe he refused to go out searching. Leandro asked her to go and search with them..............
Between the devil and the deep blue sea?

Sensible doesn't come into it......................Does it?


Dunno. The boys had come back with no sign of her. Seemingly it hadn't occurred to any of the boys to ask Celia lady if she'd actually been there. Gentle as she may be, I wouldn't find a smack-head moment to be beyond comprehension and to go out myself.

Offline Anna

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #155 on: July 15, 2015, 04:18:31 PM »
I don't think so, Anna.

He may have been one of those pain-in-the-ass relatives who turn up on your doorstep.

If Leonor had thought that he was going to be violent in any way, why would she have left him at home to babysit the younger kids while she went off to join the others to ask if anyone had seen Joana?

It would have been more sensible to send him off again and stay at home herself. Or not have let him into the house in the first place.

2009 appeal
The mother of the Applicant and of John (Florinda Sundays), after faced with the last and true confessions of both, expressly states (on 1 June of this year) that in them entirely believe, given know very well their children and know that Leonor was unable to beat in children, and that John was, on the contrary, a person very violent that even has already threatened her to death, and it was still the same son a consumer of narcotic substances heavy that "was able Do everything to get money for drugs"; ends by stressing its firm certainty with perfect knowledge of question (regarding the personality of both these sons) which is just the Joao Manuel Domingos Cyprian his son "the only responsible" by the disappearance of his granddaughter Joana Isabel Cipriano Guerreiro;
http://www.dgsi.pt/jstj.nsf/954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814/67e9f860c06af1d9802576a9004e4a2c?OpenDocument

« Last Edit: July 15, 2015, 04:24:33 PM by Anna »
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline Carana

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #156 on: July 15, 2015, 04:41:09 PM »
2009 appeal
The mother of the Applicant and of John (Florinda Sundays), after faced with the last and true confessions of both, expressly states (on 1 June of this year) that in them entirely believe, given know very well their children and know that Leonor was unable to beat in children, and that John was, on the contrary, a person very violent that even has already threatened her to death, and it was still the same son a consumer of narcotic substances heavy that "was able Do everything to get money for drugs"; ends by stressing its firm certainty with perfect knowledge of question (regarding the personality of both these sons) which is just the Joao Manuel Domingos Cyprian his son "the only responsible" by the disappearance of his granddaughter Joana Isabel Cipriano Guerreiro;
http://www.dgsi.pt/jstj.nsf/954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814/67e9f860c06af1d9802576a9004e4a2c?OpenDocument

LOL the wonders of googlish.

Hmm. I don't think that Leonor was involved in the fate of this child, but I'm sceptical about that new testimony.


Offline Anna

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #157 on: July 15, 2015, 04:55:38 PM »
LOL the wonders of googlish.

Hmm. I don't think that Leonor was involved in the fate of this child, but I'm sceptical about that new testimony.

Original, if it helps, Carana. From the link in my last post

"Declaração
Eu abaixo assinado JJ, portadora do Cartão de Cidadão 0000000, Mãe de AA e de CC , venho por este modo declarar que conheço muito bem ambos estes meus filhos, e que juro que a minha filha AA nunca batia na minha neta BB. Também juro por minha honra que esta minha neta sempre disse o melhor da mãe e que gostava muito de viver com ela. Também juro que conhecendo o meu filho CC como conheço, sei que ele era capaz de fazer tudo para conseguir dinheiro para a droga, pois há muito tempo antes da BB desaparecer que ele não trabalhava e que era consumidor duma droga considerada pesada, não sabendo exactamente se era cocaína ou heroína, mas sendo de certeza uma destas. O CC tornava-se muito violento quando não conseguia a droga e era capaz mesmo de me ameaçar de morte.
Acredito portanto na confissão da AA e do CC, ambos os meus filhos, quando confessaram que a BB minha neta, filha da minha filha AA, foi tentada vender pelo CC. Acredito finalmente que a confissão do CC meu filho, de 18 de Maio deste ano, é verdadeira e é ele o CC o único responsável pelo desaparecimento da minha neta AA de 8 anos. Portanto suplico que seja feita justiça e que a minha filha AA seja libertada e o meu filho CC pague por o que fez à menina.
 Montes Grandes Silves
 1 de Junho de 2009



“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline Carana

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #158 on: July 15, 2015, 04:58:23 PM »
A totally different question, or several:

How big was this house?

How many bedrooms were there?

Where did this MM sleep?

Was he with Leandro the entire time that evening?

Did anyone ask or check?

Offline Carana

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #159 on: July 15, 2015, 05:15:22 PM »
Original, if it helps, Carana. From the link in my last post

"Declaração
Eu abaixo assinado JJ, portadora do Cartão de Cidadão 0000000, Mãe de AA e de CC , venho por este modo declarar que conheço muito bem ambos estes meus filhos, e que juro que a minha filha AA nunca batia na minha neta BB. Também juro por minha honra que esta minha neta sempre disse o melhor da mãe e que gostava muito de viver com ela. Também juro que conhecendo o meu filho CC como conheço, sei que ele era capaz de fazer tudo para conseguir dinheiro para a droga, pois há muito tempo antes da BB desaparecer que ele não trabalhava e que era consumidor duma droga considerada pesada, não sabendo exactamente se era cocaína ou heroína, mas sendo de certeza uma destas. O CC tornava-se muito violento quando não conseguia a droga e era capaz mesmo de me ameaçar de morte.
Acredito portanto na confissão da AA e do CC, ambos os meus filhos, quando confessaram que a BB minha neta, filha da minha filha AA, foi tentada vender pelo CC. Acredito finalmente que a confissão do CC meu filho, de 18 de Maio deste ano, é verdadeira e é ele o CC o único responsável pelo desaparecimento da minha neta AA de 8 anos. Portanto suplico que seja feita justiça e que a minha filha AA seja libertada e o meu filho CC pague por o que fez à menina.
 Montes Grandes Silves
 1 de Junho de 2009

Thanks, Anna. So that's the mother of Leonor and João... googlish was getting confusing.

I'm still sceptical about it, though.

A mother's belief in the innocence or guilt of one child over another would simply not count as new "evidence" in a reappraisal of a trial, AFAIK.

It might have counted as a character witness statement in the original trial, if had been submitted at the time, but hardly as hard proof to reopen an investigation or to release a prisoner with a life sentence for having served a sentence for a lesser crime.

Who  was responsible for this "brainwave"?


The result for Leonor in the end was an extension on her sentence.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2015, 05:20:11 PM by Carana »

Offline Anna

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #160 on: July 15, 2015, 07:01:57 PM »
Thanks, Anna. So that's the mother of Leonor and João... googlish was getting confusing.

I'm still sceptical about it, though.

A mother's belief in the innocence or guilt of one child over another would simply not count as new "evidence" in a reappraisal of a trial, AFAIK.

It might have counted as a character witness statement in the original trial, if had been submitted at the time, but hardly as hard proof to reopen an investigation or to release a prisoner with a life sentence for having served a sentence for a lesser crime.

Who  was responsible for this "brainwave"?


The result for Leonor in the end was an extension on her sentence.

Joao and Leonor's mother was not called to testify in the original trial. Neither was a statement taken.
2009 appeal was judged and refused in april 2009. It was requested by Marcos C. It was denied because of his method used to get a statement of guilt from Joao.

 It was the torture trial that she got an extra penalty for.
They said she was lying because she got the colour of the carrier bag wrong and the material of the tube they were hitting her with. Since torture had already been accepted as having occurred. She should have been acquitted IMO

« Last Edit: July 15, 2015, 07:51:41 PM by Anna »
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline Anna

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #161 on: July 15, 2015, 07:57:46 PM »
A totally different question, or several:

How big was this house?

How many bedrooms were there?

Where did this MM sleep?

Was he with Leandro the entire time that evening?

Did anyone ask or check?

I believe most of the answers are in the 2006 trial, Carana.


I believe it was two bedrooms and a bathroom
 A living/dining area with kitchen
I don’t think it could be a one bedroom if guests used Joana’s bed at times and it doesn’t look big enough for three bedrooms. There was no upper floor. See photos at the bottom/
Now I look at these photos again, I wonder where was the door to the back of the house? Or was that the only door which went straight into the living room as described by PJ.
Which would mean that their house was built behind another with a front door.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I believe MM normally slept on the settee unless Joana or others wanted to watch late TV. God knows where Joao was suppose to sleep.

MM seemed to around Leandro most of the time, but they did split up to search.

« Last Edit: July 15, 2015, 08:14:10 PM by Anna »
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline Carana

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #162 on: July 15, 2015, 08:08:08 PM »
@ Anna
IMO, if there had been solid evidence against one or the other or both, then fine. This little girl deserves justice, whoever was actually responsible.

However, in terms of the "evidence" presented, I'm shocked that the case went to trial in the first place. One or both MAY indeed be guilty, but there was virtually no more established evidence against them than if the PJ had plucked people off the street. Yet they are serving life sentences...

Offline Anna

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #163 on: July 15, 2015, 08:11:05 PM »
@ Anna
IMO, if there had been solid evidence against one or the other or both, then fine. This little girl deserves justice, whoever was actually responsible.

However, in terms of the "evidence" presented, I'm shocked that the case went to trial in the first place. One or both MAY indeed be guilty, but there was virtually no more established evidence against them than if the PJ had plucked people off the street. Yet they are serving life sentences...


You got it, Carana. No evidence to convict................but they did!
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline Carana

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #164 on: July 15, 2015, 08:17:58 PM »
I believe most of the answers are in the 2006 trial, Carana.


I believe it was two bedrooms and a bathroom
 A living/dining area with kitchen
I don’t think it could be a one bedroom if guests used Joana’s bed at times and it doesn’t look big enough for three bedrooms. There was no upper floor. See photos at the bottom/
Now I look at these photos again, I wonder where was the door to the back of the house? Or was that the only door which went straight into the living room as described by PJ.
Which would mean that their house was built behind another with a front door.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I believe MM normally slept on the settee unless Joana or others wanted to watch late TV. God knows where Joao was suppose to sleep.

MM seemed to around Leandro most of the time, but they did split up to search.

Has it been established that the view of the living-room area is actually of the same home? If so, it doesn't appear to correspond to the outside view.

ETA: OK it might if the entrance and window are on the right on the living-room photo and not shown.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2015, 08:20:57 PM by Carana »