Author Topic: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?  (Read 21361 times)

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Offline John

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #105 on: July 14, 2015, 05:38:44 PM »
That's my understanding as well. Was any nearer shop open? If not, I don't see the potential issue.

It was a fair day, all the shops were open.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2015, 05:45:31 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Anna

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #106 on: July 14, 2015, 05:39:51 PM »
I agree with most of what you posted Anna, I wonder if Joana was sent out to a shop on the other side of the village to get her out of the way for a while but she came back too quick?

Both João and Leonor were involved in the girls demise for one reason or another.   They were both in the house when the girl returned home, each blamed the other at different junctures.

João has already been out a couple of times on escorted home leave and Leonor will be doing the same in the near future.  I am confident we haven't heard the last of it from Leonor, maybe the truth will out yet.

I hope the truth will come out eventually, John.
That depends on whether Leonor is capable of coping, strong enough to fight and has learned to look after herself better, whilst she was in prison....She is probably too scared to open her mouth though.
She should have had a fund to fight the allegations directed at her (with no hard evidence) which resulted in her being imprisoned and being separated from her babies.
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline Anna

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #107 on: July 14, 2015, 05:43:53 PM »
For the moment, I'm going with Helena Machado's research that the reconstruction took place on 7 October. She's a well-known sociologist and I have no reason to believe that she wouldn't have checked the facts, even if it was a detail.

That's fair enough Carana. So you believe that his video confession on that date was not acted upon until the confession on 25th in front of the magistrate?
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline John

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #108 on: July 14, 2015, 05:44:27 PM »
I hope the truth will come out eventually, John.
That depends on whether Leonor is capable of coping, strong enough to fight and has learned to look after herself better, whilst she was in prison....She is probably too scared to open her mouth though.
She should have had a fund to fight the allegations directed at her (with no hard evidence) which resulted in her being imprisoned and being separated from her babies.

I would love to interview her some day and get to the bottom of this mystery, there are just so many unanswered questions.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2015, 01:13:37 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Anna

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #109 on: July 14, 2015, 05:49:43 PM »
It was a fair day, all the shops were open.

That café was their regular shop for groceries I believe and Joana liked to go there, because the owners daughter was her friend.
Witnesses said that the streets were empty because everyone was at the cockle fair. The only traffic that seems to have been noticed was a large black car that was cruising around the area on that day. Also the tow truck and a red car that Leandro was dealing with for his parents.
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #110 on: July 14, 2015, 05:50:03 PM »
Why did she not report her daughter missing until the following morning ?

That is not normal behaviour.

Offline John

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #111 on: July 14, 2015, 06:02:40 PM »
Why did she not report her daughter missing until the following morning ?

That is not normal behaviour.

Especially when they would have passed officers from the GNR on fair duty anyway when supposedly out searching. The 'no credit on the mobile phone' story just doesn't hold water either, had her daughter really have gone missing she only had to ask someone to phone the police for her.  Also, if Joana had really gone missing why weren't the immediate neighbours alerted to join the search?  Convenient too that Leonor took Leandro out searching and left João in the house with the babies.

« Last Edit: July 14, 2015, 06:08:32 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Anna

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #112 on: July 14, 2015, 06:13:45 PM »
I would love to interview her some day and get to the bottom of this mystery, there are just so many unanswered questions.

She would tell you the same as she told Marcos. IMO
............................that her brother followed Joana after she went out and he returned about 30 minutes later. Joana never returned.
Knowing that his sister was rather backward/slow and forgiving/gentle, I think he might have told her what happened, as in Leonor's 2009 confession and she was initially protecting him.......until he stabbed her in the back that is.
However where in such a short time, could he lose a body?
As in McCann case, there was a lot of building going on and ditches to be filled in the area.
Joao worked in Figueira in construction at times, not that I am saying that he put her in a ditch prepared for filling, just one of my many thoughts on the case.
Was she sold and he didn't want to part with any of the money?
He accused Leandros parents of being involved in the money
He also accused his brother of being involved
and of course he accused, Leonor

In the end it all boils down to evidence and there was nothing with which to safely convict them. Their trial consisted of Propaganda causing a trial by media before it even got to court. The final straw was that video made by Joao and shown in court despite their right to remain silent during the trial.

“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline Carana

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #113 on: July 14, 2015, 06:16:17 PM »
Why did she not report her daughter missing until the following morning ?

That is not normal behaviour.

There is a witness statement from a GNR officer gathering information from her and the men searching for her that night at a bit after midnight near the church. She was told to make a formal report later that morning at the Portimão station, which she did.

Here we go:

A testemunha AA6, militar da GNR, declarou que nessa noite decorria o festival do berbigão na Figueira e que após a chamada da D. NN encontrou-se com a arguida BB, o II e outro indivíduo, junto à igreja, tendo a mãe contado que a CC tinha desaparecido, referindo que a tinha mandado ao café e que a última vez que a menor tinha sido vista tinha sido ali, também junto à igreja. A testemunha disse-lhe que no dia seguinte teria que ir ao Posto em Portimão formalizar a queixa. Declarou ainda a testemunha que a mãe não aparentava muita preocupação para um caso destes.

A testemunha AA7, militar da GNR, referiu que no dia 13 de Setembro de 2004, no Posto da GNR de Portimão, entre as 10h 30m / 11h, recebeu a queixa do desaparecimento da CC. Foi a mãe que fez a queixa, acompanhada do arguido AA. A arguida BB aparentava tristeza, mas não chorou. A testemunha recebeu as fotografias que a mãe levava e perguntou-lhe se havia motivos para a CC fugir de casa ou se tinha algumas desconfianças, a tudo tendo a arguida BB respondido que não.

Offline mercury

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #114 on: July 14, 2015, 06:18:55 PM »
Why did she not report her daughter missing until the following morning ?

That is not normal behaviour.

Bit likethe mccanns, delayed reportng is always suspicious

Offline Anna

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #115 on: July 14, 2015, 06:21:35 PM »
Especially when they would have passed officers from the GNR on fair duty anyway when supposedly out searching. The 'no credit on the mobile phone' story just doesn't hold water either, had her daughter really have gone missing she only had to ask someone to phone the police for her.  Also, if Joana had really gone missing why weren't the immediate neighbours alerted to join the search?  Convenient too that Leonor took Leandro out searching and left João in the house with the babies.

Her friend from the café went to help and after all relatives etc had been checked, she phoned the police.
Leonor did report it to a GNR officer whilst they were out searching. He told her to go to the office the following day.
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline Carana

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #116 on: July 14, 2015, 06:26:58 PM »
That's fair enough Carana. So you believe that his video confession on that date was not acted upon until the confession on 25th in front of the magistrate?

I don't know Anna. I suspect that the video confession was well after the initial "confessions", i.e., on or around 7 October - that seems to be the only reliable reference for the moment.

Leandro doesn't mention a date (but if he was the only one to have a key, it was presumably after Leonor had been held on remand). The SC ruling doesn't appear to mention a date, either.

Offline Carana

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #117 on: July 14, 2015, 06:38:32 PM »
She would tell you the same as she told Marcos. IMO
............................that her brother followed Joana after she went out and he returned about 30 minutes later. Joana never returned.
Knowing that his sister was rather backward/slow and forgiving/gentle, I think he might have told her what happened, as in Leonor's 2009 confession and she was initially protecting him.......until he stabbed her in the back that is.
However where in such a short time, could he lose a body?
As in McCann case, there was a lot of building going on and ditches to be filled in the area.
Joao worked in Figueira in construction at times, not that I am saying that he put her in a ditch prepared for filling, just one of my many thoughts on the case.
Was she sold and he didn't want to part with any of the money?
He accused Leandros parents of being involved in the money
He also accused his brother of being involved
and of course he accused, Leonor

In the end it all boils down to evidence and there was nothing with which to safely convict them. Their trial consisted of Propaganda causing a trial by media before it even got to court. The final straw was that video made by Joao and shown in court despite their right to remain silent during the trial.

Despite my initial assumptions, and having thought of all kinds of possibilities, I now don't think that either of them have a clue what happened to her.

Even if one of them had sold her, why "confess" to this macabre body chopping scenario? There is simply no forensic or other credible evidence that this gory story happened. There is no evidence that either of them attempted to sell her, either.

Under pressure, I can however see that each had become suspicious of the other... but it doesn't appear to more than that.

She simply vanished.


Offline mercury

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #118 on: July 14, 2015, 06:42:03 PM »
Despite my initial assumptions, and having thought of all kinds of possibilities, I now don't think that either of them have a clue what happened to her.

Even if one of them had sold her, why "confess" to this macabre body chopping scenario? There is simply no forensic or other credible evidence that this gory story happened. There is no evidence that either of them attempted to sell her, either.

Under pressure, I can however see that each had become suspicious of the other... but it doesn't appear to more than that.

She simply vanished.

yea just like Madeleine did, no evidence of an abduction but PLENTY circumstantial...and such being wghitewashed or attempted at, but still wont wash howver hard you try
« Last Edit: July 14, 2015, 06:44:58 PM by mercury »

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #119 on: July 14, 2015, 06:42:26 PM »
There is a witness statement from a GNR officer gathering information from her and the men searching for her that night at a bit after midnight near the church. She was told to make a formal report later that morning at the Portimão station, which she did.

Here we go:

A testemunha AA6, militar da GNR, declarou que nessa noite decorria o festival do berbigão na Figueira e que após a chamada da D. NN encontrou-se com a arguida BB, o II e outro indivíduo, junto à igreja, tendo a mãe contado que a CC tinha desaparecido, referindo que a tinha mandado ao café e que a última vez que a menor tinha sido vista tinha sido ali, também junto à igreja. A testemunha disse-lhe que no dia seguinte teria que ir ao Posto em Portimão formalizar a queixa. Declarou ainda a testemunha que a mãe não aparentava muita preocupação para um caso destes.

A testemunha AA7, militar da GNR, referiu que no dia 13 de Setembro de 2004, no Posto da GNR de Portimão, entre as 10h 30m / 11h, recebeu a queixa do desaparecimento da CC. Foi a mãe que fez a queixa, acompanhada do arguido AA. A arguida BB aparentava tristeza, mas não chorou. A testemunha recebeu as fotografias que a mãe levava e perguntou-lhe se havia motivos para a CC fugir de casa ou se tinha algumas desconfianças, a tudo tendo a arguida BB respondido que não.

If my daughter had gone missing,  I would not be waiting for the following morning.

How old was she by the way ?