Author Topic: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine  (Read 20031 times)

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Offline mercury

Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
« Reply #60 on: July 17, 2015, 09:51:37 PM »
How would it be possible for someone to be searching long before the last check began?

Is it possible Mrs C heard some other parent calling for own child of same first name?

There are no female children in the OC records whose first name begins with an M. It is possible there was a same named child staying there as as part of an apartment privately owned or a guest of friends. Guess we cannot really know if the recollection was true, mistaken, or relating to another night.It just seemed curious to me that they left by 9.30pm at the latest, whch "seems" about right seeing as their reservation was very early on that evening and within the few minutes it took them to get home Mrs C heard someone.One for the back burner.


Offline pegasus

Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
« Reply #61 on: July 17, 2015, 10:56:50 PM »
"At approximately half past eight, Gerry and Kate and their group of approximately ten people were already seated at their table, which was so close to ours that it was possible to converse with them, we spoke of tennis amongst other things"
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN-CARPENTER.htm

All T9 adults seated at about 8.30pm?
Clearly some peoples' time estimates that evening were inaccurate. But which?



Offline pegasus

Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
« Reply #62 on: July 17, 2015, 11:10:04 PM »
"I vaguely remember that Gerry and Kate and other people from the group would leave the table in intervals ... I think it was to check on the children, but I do not remember with what frequency or how many times the people left the table to check on the children"

So this witness certainly did see some people leave the table.
If he literally saw K leaving to do a check, that means he and his family left tapas just after K left to do her check?


« Last Edit: July 17, 2015, 11:12:38 PM by pegasus »

Offline mercury

Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
« Reply #63 on: July 17, 2015, 11:12:23 PM »
"At approximately half past eight, Gerry and Kate and their group of approximately ten people were already seated at their table, which was so close to ours that it was possible to converse with them, we spoke of tennis amongst other things"
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN-CARPENTER.htm

All T9 adults seated at about 8.30pm?
Clearly some peoples' time estimates that evening were inaccurate. But which?

Who knows. Probably the Tapas group. IMO.
becAuse Carpenter says they all arrived together more or less, he wouldnt talk of 10 people all there at 8.30 if there was only a few of them

Offline mercury

Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
« Reply #64 on: July 17, 2015, 11:17:34 PM »
"I vaguely remember that Gerry and Kate and other people from the group would leave the table in intervals ... I think it was to check on the children, but I do not remember with what frequency or how many times the people left the table to check on the children"

So this witness certainly did see some people leave the table.
If he literally saw K leaving to do a check, that means he and his family left tapas just after K left to do her check?

No one knows, dont you just wish cctv was there?

BTW how did Carpenter know they were leaving go check on kids rather than go toilet or get or out for a fag?

Offline pegasus

Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
« Reply #65 on: July 17, 2015, 11:37:53 PM »
No one knows, dont you just wish cctv was there?

BTW how did Carpenter know they were leaving go check on kids rather than go toilet or get or out for a fag?
Good point. The toilet block is half way between restaurant and little reception building.


Offline misty

Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
« Reply #66 on: July 17, 2015, 11:38:58 PM »
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN-CARPENTER.htm


DCF: At what time did you leave the Tapas bar'

 SC: I think it was at about half past nine.

 DCF: I think that is what you said.

 SC: Yes.

 DCF: And you were accompanied, you replied that you were with your children and your wife. Where did you go afterwards, it says here...before going back to your apartment, can you describe the route you took'

 SC: Directly to the apartment.

 DCF: Did you see anyone outside the Tapas Bar or outside the apartments'

 SC: If I saw anyone outside the Tapas bar or, hummm.. on the way home presumably'

 DCF: Yes, is there anyone you remember that night, did you see anyone in the area'

 SC: No.

 DCF: At what time did you go to bed'

 SC: Almost immediately, we put the children to bed because it was already quite late for them, humm... about half past ten, yes, about half past ten (inaudible).


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you connect CC hearing someone calling for Madeleine, the Carpenters witnessing both Gerry & Kate leaving the table  & the time the Carpenters went to bed very soon after returning to their own apartment, I think SC's estimate of 9.15pm as the time of leaving the Tapas Bar is the inconsistency.

Offline misty

Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
« Reply #67 on: July 17, 2015, 11:41:07 PM »
No one knows, dont you just wish cctv was there?

BTW how did Carpenter know they were leaving go check on kids rather than go toilet or get or out for a fag?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN-CARPENTER.htm
*snipped*
SC: Yes, I remember that people would absent themselves intermittently at different times, but I did not know why.

 DCF: no.

 SC: But as we discovered later, it was to check on the children.


Offline mercury

Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
« Reply #68 on: July 17, 2015, 11:54:49 PM »
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/STEPHEN-CARPENTER.htm
*snipped*
SC: Yes, I remember that people would absent themselves intermittently at different times, but I did not know why.

 DCF: no.

 SC: But as we discovered later, it was to check on the children.

I was going to say, yes,, he said that, in the same way silvia batista said she learnt later, that robert murat was robert murat, but only because TOLD by others but didnt know at the time, but then I remembered the Mccanns telling someone they left the kids alone and were checking them, but on thinking back that was not the carpenters.but others...just wondering again WHY parents who TELL ANYONE they didnt know they left their kids alone!! and then have the absolute GALL to complain ONCE they told restaraunt staff that they left their kids alone and who may have relayed that to seeing as they told at least two lots of people thats  exactly what  they  did. 

Why was Kate Mccann incensed when she found some note in the PJ files ghat was a receptipnists note saying her kids were alone  if they told people they wer of theif  ownfree will????
« Last Edit: July 18, 2015, 12:00:03 AM by mercury »

Offline pegasus

Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
« Reply #69 on: July 17, 2015, 11:59:51 PM »
The easiest solution is to have the C family leave tapas about same time as K's check.
Then Mrs C may on way home hear the searching.

But that is contradicted by "... one couple we played tennis with, and we chatted to them, and then some friends started arriving, and they left shortly after that ..." (GM in Panorama video 7m30s see page 1 of this thread)
« Last Edit: July 18, 2015, 12:04:18 AM by pegasus »

Offline misty

Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
« Reply #70 on: July 18, 2015, 12:25:07 AM »
The easiest solution is to have the C family leave tapas about same time as K's check.
Then Mrs C may on way home hear the searching.

But that is contradicted by "... one couple we played tennis with, and we chatted to them, and then some friends started arriving, and they left shortly after that ..." (GM in Panorama video 7m30s see page 1 of this thread)

I would lend more credence to the recollection of the person leaving the table than the person remaining at the table amidst his group of friends.

Offline Anna

Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
« Reply #71 on: July 18, 2015, 01:16:35 PM »
The receptionist, Helder;

He knows about the situation that happened at the Ocean Club concerning the disappearance of a little given that on the day in question (03/05/2007) he was on duty and was contacted by a member of staff from the Tapas Restaurant between 09.30 and 22.00 who informed him that the daughter of some guests who were dining there had disappeared.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HELDER_LUIS.htm

The times are all a muddle. I may also have slipped slightly from the topic, but it was necessary to answer the question regarding times.


Vitor Manuel dos Santos
With regard to the date of the disappearance on 3rd May 2007, he remembers that at 22.00/22.15 he received a phone call from the reception, from receptionist Helder, who told him that John Hill was extremely agitated as a child had disappeared and that the GNR had been contacted but had not arrived yet. He added (the receptionist) that he had phoned the GNR post several times and that he had been told that they would arrive when they could but that they were investigating a theft in Odiaxere. The receptionist asked the witness whether he should contact the PSP, to which the witness replied no as this area belongs to the GNR.

Given the circumstances, the witness thought it best to go to the resort to find out more about the situation.

When he arrived at the scene about 10 to 15 minutes later, he immediately went to the reception where the GNR were present, taking a statement from the girl’s father.

According to VS-
22.00 -22.15 he was called by JHelder
….The timing above is wrong by at least 35 mins ?

J helder told him that he had called the police several times before calling him which  means that it was after 22.50 that J Helder called him ?
JHelder told him of a theft in odiaxere holding up the police?



According to J helder-

Helder Jorge Samaio Luis

Occupation: Receptionist Ocean Club

Has worked at the Ocean Club for almost a year and a half and works as a Receptionist at the main Ocean Club Reception. He doesn’t work fixed hours but he always works on the 16.00 to 24.00 shift.

All his work takes place at the main reception.

He knows about the situation that happened at the Ocean Club concerning the disappearance of a little given that on the day in question (03/05/2007) he was on duty and was contacted by a member of staff from the Tapas Restaurant between 09.30 and 22.00  who informed him that the daughter of some guests who were dining there had disappeared.

That he immediately contacted the GNR in Lagos, shortly after this the child’s father and John Hill arrived at the reception and he phoned the GNR again.

He then contacted the head of reception Vítor Santos and informed him of the situation.

He remained at the OC reception until 24.00 when he was replaced by a colleague Mr Eliseu.

He then left the OC and went home.




According to John Hill and several others -
He J hill arrived at OC around 22.33


According to GNR-
The patrol had a call while in Odiaxere and left immediately for OC 

The GNR statements said the patrol was  in Odiaxere
The receptionist statement never mentioned Odiaxere

So where did VS come up with the story of a theft? Maybe the GNR?
Why was his timing out by so much?

J Hill arrived at OC around 22.33
VS was called by the receptionist when Gerry and J hill were in reception or around or just after according to
Helder..
Directly after Hill and Gerry arrived, Helder called the police again….that would have been the last call recorded around 22.50 then he called VS

So the first call was after J Hill arrived at 22.33 -(22.40) and the second after J hill arrived in reception 22.50 He then called VS
« Last Edit: July 18, 2015, 01:32:08 PM by Anna »
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline slartibartfast

Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
« Reply #72 on: July 19, 2015, 12:29:16 PM »
The times are all a muddle. I may also have slipped slightly from the topic, but it was necessary to answer the question regarding times.


I tend to agree with that for all timings.
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline pegasus

Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
« Reply #73 on: July 19, 2015, 01:16:24 PM »
If we ignore guesses of times by witnesses, and look only at the order things happened, IMO it is clear from SC's statement that he saw some of the T9 getting up from table to do checks (and maybe some visits to the toilet block in the same direction), before he and his family left the restaurant.

So SC and family IMO left restaurant after some checks, but probably not as late as KM check IMO.

BTW do any of the T9 statements actually mention that the C family in restaurant had their young kids eating with them? Isn't that something the group would remember?
« Last Edit: July 19, 2015, 01:19:05 PM by pegasus »

Offline Anna

Re: The Carpenters - Calling out of Madelene Madeleine
« Reply #74 on: July 19, 2015, 01:46:59 PM »
If we ignore guesses of times by witnesses, and look only at the order things happened, IMO it is clear from SC's statement that he saw some of the T9 getting up from table to do checks (and maybe some visits to the toilet block in the same direction), before he and his family left the restaurant.

So SC and family IMO left restaurant after some checks, but probably not as late as KM check IMO.

BTW do any of the T9 statements actually mention that the C family in restaurant had their young kids eating with them? Isn't that something the group would remember?

The children of SC are not  on the Tapas booking form and there were other children there as well. If it was a regular occurrence for children to be there, I doubt that anyone would take notice.
The couple ? sitting on their balcony did not see anyone leave, but they didn't see Jez or Gerry either. They were watching children playing and saw the dining room. IIRC.

SC statement is a bit confusing also, with all the other information he gave.   
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato