Lack of gunshot residue on Sheila's hands

[Holly Goodhead]

I cant see anywhere in the CoA doc where the actual bullets used are identified.

[Myster]

I cant see anywhere in the CoA doc where the actual bullets used are identified.

Better ring Radcliffes to see which type of bullets they sold to the Bambers along with the Anschutz in '84.

On second thoughts, maybe not as they'll probably think it's that barmy woman again.

I've seen a receipt somewhere online, but can't remember if the ammo was specified.

[Holly Goodhead]

Better ring Radcliffes to see which type of bullets they sold to the Bambers along with the Anschutz in '84.

On second thoughts, maybe not as they'll probably think it's that barmy woman again.

I've seen a receipt somewhere online, but can't remember if the ammo was specified.

I thought I had seen something somewhere but maybe not  &%+((£. The following just details the rifle, sights and silencer. 

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=531.0;attach=1673

I find the CoA doc frightening: 3 appeal court judges, MF supposedly a ballistics expert acting for the prosecution and Dr Lloyd for the defence and yet they have been unable to:

- identify the bullets used
- identify the materials used

The whole thing is madness. 

[Holly Goodhead]

I confess I've never taken much notice/interest in the hand swabs as I thought it was all about whether the swabs were handled and labelled correctly which is difficult to prove one way or the other but I can see there's more to it than this!!!!

From CoA:


177. At trial Brian Elliott, a scientist from the Home Office Forensic Science Laboratory, gave evidence that the item DRH/33 described as "Swabbing Kit – hands of Sheila Caffell" had been received at the laboratory on 13 September 1985. He said that tests had been carried out for the presence of lead and that only "very low levels of lead have been detected on the two hand swabs". He further reported that tests had been carried out on two members of the laboratory staff who had loaded eighteen cartridges, similar to those used to shoot those who died at White House Farm, into the magazine of the rifle, and "significantly higher levels of lead" had been detected. Clearly if this evidence was right it cast doubt upon Sheila Caffell having loaded the cartridges into the gun and thus to her having killed the others and then herself.

FFS "similar"?  So not an exact comparison on a like-for-like basis  . What planet are these people on?  The tech spec from Eley for the subsonic cartridges makes it clear they are designed to leave a minimum of residue, if any.

 

[John]

Had Sheila reloaded the rifle several times her fingers would have been contaminated with bullet lubricant in addition to the gun shot residue.  Firing off 22 rounds in such a short time should also have left tell-tale marks on her fingers.  If I recall correctly, there were no such marks or deposits on any of her fingers.

[Holly Goodhead]

Had Sheila reloaded the rifle several times her fingers would have been contaminated with bullet lubricant in addition to the gun shot residue.  Firing off 22 rounds in such a short time should also have left tell-tale marks on her fingers.  If I recall correctly, there were no such marks or deposits on any of her fingers.

It appears there are two issues: lack of bullet lubricant/lead from handling the bullets and lack of gun shot residue (gsr) from firing the rifle.

Lack of bullet lubricant/lead

The bullets used were made by Eley (subsonic).  I have confirmed with Eley by email that the subsonic bullets have always been manufactured using paraffin wax as a bullet lubricant.  On Eley's website they describe the lubricant  as "Firm hydrocarbon to reduce residues" and "The non-greasy lubricant provides smooth operation in semi-automatic rifles and improves functioning in all weather conditions".

It appears  from the CoA document that when the scientist assessed SC's hand swabs he used a "similar" bullet and not the actual bullets used at WHF namely Eley subsonic.  Obviously this may well have skewed the results.   There's no point in saying the test results show appreciably higher lead deposits than SC's swabs if the bullets used were different.  How similar is similar?  Why not use the exact same bullets?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6629.msg274447#msg274447

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6629.msg274824#msg274824

Lack of gun shot residue

It seems a lack of gsr does not indicate innocence and could be explained by the following:

- The particles start to quickly disappear after 3 hours (SC may have been dead for some 6 hours or longer before the hand swabs were taken).

- If the perp moves the particles can disappear (It is claimed EP moved SC.  DI Cook moved her hand  for sure).

- If the perp is in a draughty environment the particles can disappear (SC was near the open window in the main bedroom).

- If the perp uses a rifle or shotgun the gsr is more likely to fall in the crook of the arm than on the hands

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6629.msg272805#msg272805

[John]

Having handled many different types of firearms Holly it is very difficult to explain how someone who supposedly fired a rifle 22 times and reloaded it would not have visible contaminants on their hands.  That is the hurdle you have to overcome in order to prove that Sheila did it.

[Holly Goodhead]

Having handled many different types of firearms Holly it is very difficult to explain how someone who supposedly fired a rifle 22 times and reloaded it would not have visible contaminants on their hands.  That is the hurdle you have to overcome in order to prove that Sheila did it.

The info the jury were given is quite possibly wrong based on the fact the scientist, Brian Elliot, used "similar" bullets in his experiment.  He asked two members of staff at FSS to load 18 "similar" bullets into a magazine and then observed "appreciably" higher lead deposits than SC's hand swabs.  How can anything be drawn from this?   The bullets used at WHF and manufactured by Eley were designed specifically to "reduce residues" and are described as having a "non greasy" lubricant.  I'm reading the relevant sections in the CoA document and its quite unbelievable.  Lots of 'experts' involved for the prosecution and defence and yet they have been unable to identify the materials used in the bullets at WHF.  Surely the most straight-forward, reliable and cost effective way would have been to go to the manufacturers and ask the technical director or equivalent to provide a report.  No mention of Eley at all. 

[John]

The info the jury were given is quite possibly wrong based on the fact the scientist, Brian Elliot, used "similar" bullets in his experiment.  He asked two members of staff at FSS to load 18 "similar" bullets into a magazine and then observed "appreciably" higher lead deposits than SC's hand swabs.  How can anything be drawn from this?   The bullets used at WHF and manufactured by Eley were designed specifically to "reduce residues" and are described as having a "non greasy" lubricant.  I'm reading the relevant sections in the CoA document and its quite unbelievable.  Lots of 'experts' involved for the prosecution and defence and yet they have been unable to identify the materials used in the bullets at WHF.  Surely the most straight-forward, reliable and cost effective way would have been to go to the manufacturers and ask the technical director or equivalent to provide a report.  No mention of Eley at all.

I accept what you say however, unless the rifle was spotlessly clean prior to Sheila picking it up then there could be gsr and lubricants all over it from previous use.  That in turn is transferred and reflected as stains and black marks on any new users hands and fingers.  It is virtually impossible not to get stains on you hands if you fire a weapon several times which has been previously fired by someone else.

[Holly Goodhead]

I accept what you say however, unless the rifle was spotlessly clean prior to Sheila picking it up then there could be gsr and lubricants all over it from previous use.  That in turn is transferred and reflected as stains and black marks on any new users hands and fingers.  It is virtually impossible not to get stains on you hands if you fire a weapon several times which has been previously fired by someone else.

According to the CoA doc NB cleaned his guns after use:

12. Ralph Nevill Bamber, (who was known as Nevill Bamber and we shall refer to him in that way) was 61 at the time of his death. He was a farmer and a local Magistrate and lived with his wife June at White House Farm. He was a well-built man, 6' 4" tall and in good physical health. Those who knew him spoke of him as a good and fair man. He kept a number of guns including shotguns and the rifle, which was to feature in the killings, at the farm. He shot on his own farm as well as attending shoots locally. A number of witnesses called at the trial spoke of the care with which Nevill Bamber treated the weapons kept at the farmhouse. He would clean the guns following use and would not allow them to be left lying around.

[John]

According to the CoA doc NB cleaned his guns after use:

12. Ralph Nevill Bamber, (who was known as Nevill Bamber and we shall refer to him in that way) was 61 at the time of his death. He was a farmer and a local Magistrate and lived with his wife June at White House Farm. He was a well-built man, 6' 4" tall and in good physical health. Those who knew him spoke of him as a good and fair man. He kept a number of guns including shotguns and the rifle, which was to feature in the killings, at the farm. He shot on his own farm as well as attending shoots locally. A number of witnesses called at the trial spoke of the care with which Nevill Bamber treated the weapons kept at the farmhouse. He would clean the guns following use and would not allow them to be left lying around.

I accept that Holly but the .22 Anschütz was Jeremy's gun surely, is there any evidence he cleaned it after use, he certainly left it lying around according to his own evidence?

[Holly Goodhead]

I accept that Holly but the .22 Anschütz was Jeremy's gun surely, is there any evidence he cleaned it after use, he certainly left it lying around according to his own evidence?

As far as I'm aware JB did not legally own any guns.  A WS from Robert Radcliffe shows he sold the rifle and silencer to R N Bamber via his gun shop:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=531.0;attach=1673

I have no idea whether JB cleaned guns after use.  I don't believe he fired any shots on 6th so I guess no need to clean then.

An interesting quote from CAL P137, source WS of RB:  Following an OCP meeting on 18th July 1985 PB and RB returned to WHF with June and NB for coffee.  RB asked to see the new den off the scullery:

"Nevill took him through, stopping to pick up a rifle and some ammunition from the settle".

I have never understood this argument that JB set the scene leaving the rifle and ammo out.  Perhaps if the guns were kept in a locked cupboard but they weren't so if SC or anyone was of a mind to take a firearm and ammo they could do so.  SC would be fully ofay with where the firearms and ammo were kept.  Intruders would know there was a very strong possibility of firearms on the premises and a quick search would easily locate.  I'm not suggesting a third party was involved just making the point that firearms were accessible to anyone who wanted to use one.

An analogy might be JB took some ham from the fridge placed it on a cutting board, cut a slice using a sharp knife, made a sandwich, returned the ham to the fridge and left the knife on the cutting board.  Later someone attempts to stab someone in WHF with the knife and JB is blamed for setting the scene and not putting the knife in the dishwasher as June would normally do.  Anyone, legitimate occupants or intruders, would know where to look for a kitchen knife.  To the Bamber family having firearms hanging around was no more odd than any of us having sharp knives in drawers or left on kitchen work tops.

I know it is law now that gun owners must keep firearms in a locked cabinet.  Does anyone know what the law was back in '85?  Is this perhaps one reason NB was reluctant to involve the police if things were not as they should have been?  Especially given the psychiatric histories of June and SC.  More so SC who had talked with a number of people about suicide.

OMG I have gone off topic...

[Holly Goodhead]

FAO Myster:

As far as I am concerned it has been confirmed to my satisfaction that it is was paraffin wax and not beeswax used to lubricate the Eley subsonic bullets.  I have since fired off another email to Eley asking them to clarify whether the handling of the bullets results in lead deposits and black discolouration.  I think some depositing of lead would be expected as it states on the box that users should wash their hands after handling due to lead. 

I have for the first time read the CoA doc re the hand swabs and alarm bells are ringing:

177. At trial Brian Elliott, a scientist from the Home Office Forensic Science Laboratory, gave evidence that the item DRH/33 described as "Swabbing Kit – hands of Sheila Caffell" had been received at the laboratory on 13 September 1985. He said that tests had been carried out for the presence of lead and that only "very low levels of lead have been detected on the two hand swabs". He further reported that tests had been carried out on two members of the laboratory staff who had loaded eighteen cartridges, similar to those used to shoot those who died at White House Farm, into the magazine of the rifle, and "significantly higher levels of lead" had been detected. Clearly if this evidence was right it cast doubt upon Sheila Caffell having loaded the cartridges into the gun and thus to her having killed the others and then herself.

215. At trial Mr Elliott had given evidence of the results of testing the swabs for lead, which included information about other elements detectable on the swab. He had also given evidence of the comparative tests carried out on other scientists after they had handled ammunition from the same source as that used in the killings and loaded it into the magazine. The tests were said to demonstrate appreciably higher lead levels on the scientists' hands than were found on the swabs taken from the hands of Sheila Caffell. This was put forward as evidence that Sheila Caffell had not handled the cartridges in a manner consistent with her being the killer.

So it appears from the above that Mr Elliot carried out tests using "similar" cartridges but at trial told the jury his tests were based on ammunition from the "same" source as that used in the killings.

[puglove]

As far as I'm aware JB did not legally own any guns.  A WS from Robert Radcliffe shows he sold the rifle and silencer to R N Bamber via his gun shop:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=531.0;attach=1673

I have no idea whether JB cleaned guns after use.  I don't believe he fired any shots on 6th so I guess no need to clean then.

An interesting quote from CAL P137, source WS of RB:  Following an OCP meeting on 18th July 1985 PB and RB returned to WHF with June and NB for coffee.  RB asked to see the new den off the scullery:

"Nevill took him through, stopping to pick up a rifle and some ammunition from the settle".

I have never understood this argument that JB set the scene leaving the rifle and ammo out.  Perhaps if the guns were kept in a locked cupboard but they weren't so if SC or anyone was of a mind to take a firearm and ammo they could do so.  SC would be fully ofay with where the firearms and ammo were kept.  Intruders would know there was a very strong possibility of firearms on the premises and a quick search would easily locate.  I'm not suggesting a third party was involved just making the point that firearms were accessible to anyone who wanted to use one.

An analogy might be JB took some ham from the fridge placed it on a cutting board, cut a slice using a sharp knife, made a sandwich, returned the ham to the fridge and left the knife on the cutting board.  Later someone attempts to stab someone in WHF with the knife and JB is blamed for setting the scene and not putting the knife in the dishwasher as June would normally do.  Anyone, legitimate occupants or intruders, would know where to look for a kitchen knife.  To the Bamber family having firearms hanging around was no more odd than any of us having sharp knives in drawers or left on kitchen work tops.

I know it is law now that gun owners must keep firearms in a locked cabinet.  Does anyone know what the law was back in '85?  Is this perhaps one reason NB was reluctant to involve the police if things were not as they should have been?  Especially given the psychiatric histories of June and SC.  More so SC who had talked with a number of people about suicide.

OMG I have gone off topic...

Seriously, Holl, you've never understood why JB left a loaded gun out? Bearing in mind that Ralph and/or June would have been horrified? And sorted it out?

How else would Sheila, totally uninterested and "ofay" with guns , have been able to use the gun so competently? The gun had to be loaded.

THAT was Bamber's let-out clause. A loaded gun, left out, ignored by Ralph, just waiting for the boys to play with.

And just waiting for Sheila to go "crazy" with it. Except that....Sheila didn't know how to load the magazine.

[puglove]

With the best will in the world, Holl, the ham anology is total bollox.

Why did he call Julie BEFORE he called the police?