Author Topic: Did Eddie and Keela work as a team prior to the Madeleine McCann case?  (Read 85405 times)

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ferryman

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Re: Did Eddie and Keela work as a team prior to the Madeleine McCann case?
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2015, 09:27:12 PM »
I think this idea of desensitising a dog to blood, then training a second dog to detect nothing else, is an innovation of the forensic canine program intended to increase faith in the reliability of a cadaver dog alert (as being to the scent of a cadaver)
« Last Edit: September 26, 2015, 05:02:58 PM by John »

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Did Eddie and Keela work as a team prior to the Madeleine McCann case?
« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2015, 09:35:53 PM »
do any other authorities use a blood and a cadaver/blood dog together...it seems unnecessarily complicated

You can kind of see the advantage if the cadaver dog is desensitised to blood, because that should increase surety that a cadaver dog alert is to cadaver-scent.  And if you have a second dog trained to find only blood, then the potential advantage of finding blood is not lost.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Did Eddie and Keela work as a team prior to the Madeleine McCann case?
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2015, 09:37:12 PM »
I think this idea of desensitising a dog to blood, then training a second dog to detect nothing else, is an innovation of the forensic canine program intended to increase faith in the reliability of a cadaver dog alert (as being to the scent of a cadaver)

I think "faith" is the right word.. @)(++(* @)(++(*

Offline Carana

Re: Did Eddie and Keela work as a team prior to the Madeleine McCann case?
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2015, 10:02:39 PM »
I think this idea of desensitising a dog to blood, then training a second dog to detect nothing else, is an innovation of the forensic canine program intended to increase faith in the reliability of a cadaver dog alert (as being to the scent of a cadaver)

How do you desensitise a VR dog to blood? I can see how one could be trained to only alert to blood, but not how it could be desensitised to it.

What decomposing human remains, which is what a forensic VR dog is supposed to sniff out, would not have an associated smell of blood?

Offline Carana

Re: Did Eddie and Keela work as a team prior to the Madeleine McCann case?
« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2015, 10:15:34 PM »
I think this idea of desensitising a dog to blood, then training a second dog to detect nothing else, is an innovation of the forensic canine program intended to increase faith in the reliability of a cadaver dog alert (as being to the scent of a cadaver)

I can see the interest in having a general VR dog and a specialist to zoom in. The point is to find a victim's body (in which case the blood dog isn't necessary), or to find forensically verifiable evidence of someone's blood.

I have no problem with that, but in this case none was found.

Offline mercury

Re: Did Eddie and Keela work as a team prior to the Madeleine McCann case?
« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2015, 10:18:56 PM »
I can see the interest in having a general VR dog and a specialist to zoom in. The point is to find a victim's body (in which case the blood dog isn't necessary), or to find forensically verifiable evidence of someone's blood.

I have no problem with that, but in this case none was found.

No, the point in this case was to find remnant cadaver scent as it was clear no body or body parts were in situ

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Did Eddie and Keela work as a team prior to the Madeleine McCann case?
« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2015, 10:20:05 PM »
AFAIK, there doesn't seem to be any universal agreement on dog training in the UK, let alone elsewhere:



In the UK there are approximately 70 VR or cadaver dogs, mostly used by police forces, although organisations such as search and rescue teams also have them.  There is not a very widespread awareness of the VR dogs and their work, says Lorna, although they have been used for many years.

They are mostly used for human remains detection, not just in murder cases but for suicides too.  For example, if somebody has been hit by a train, the dogs are used to locate body parts.  They have also been used after incidents such as the 7/7 bombings.

They can also be used for blood detection, if there has been an assault for example, and in Lancashire they train their dogs to identify semen as well, so they can be used in sexual assault cases,” said Lorna.

https://www.hud.ac.uk/news/2014/august/forensicsresearchtomakecadaverdogsmoreefficient.php

There is no national accreditation and training system; as there is no national system there can be no NOBO to do certification to a common datum. There are merely ACPO Guidelines. ACPO aspired to having a national system about 4 years ago.
One would feel more confident were there a national system and UKAS were the NOBO.

Define the system that should have been used then you can define any shortcomings otherwise we can talk til the cows come home about Eddie and Keela. They may have been trained and may have some accreditation but what did that mean when there were only guidelines which by definition are not mandatory.
This is interesting in some respects:
http://www.malpeetk9security.com/#/k9-academy/4536207080
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Carana

Re: Did Eddie and Keela work as a team prior to the Madeleine McCann case?
« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2015, 10:40:29 PM »
No, the point in this case was to find remnant cadaver scent as it was clear no body or body parts were in situ

For which there are about half a dozen anecdotal reports of success, if that. Even a stopped clock is correct twice a day. Why wheel in Keela if the aim is not to pinpoint potential forensic evidence?

Offline Carana

Re: Did Eddie and Keela work as a team prior to the Madeleine McCann case?
« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2015, 10:43:00 PM »
There is no national accreditation and training system; as there is no national system there can be no NOBO to do certification to a common datum. There are merely ACPO Guidelines. ACPO aspired to having a national system about 4 years ago.
One would feel more confident were there a national system and UKAS were the NOBO.

Define the system that should have been used then you can define any shortcomings otherwise we can talk til the cows come home about Eddie and Keela. They may have been trained and may have some accreditation but what did that mean when there were only guidelines which by definition are not mandatory.
This is interesting in some respects:
http://www.malpeetk9security.com/#/k9-academy/4536207080

Thanks, but the link doesn't work.

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Did Eddie and Keela work as a team prior to the Madeleine McCann case?
« Reply #24 on: September 23, 2015, 10:44:55 PM »
Thanks, but the link doesn't work.
try googling malpeet k9
It has been sort of disables in the past 30 minutes!!
Nonetheless it linked to this which was the interesting bit:
http://www.nasdu.co.uk/about-nasdu/aims-objectives/
« Last Edit: September 23, 2015, 10:55:24 PM by Alice Purjorick »
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline mercury

Re: Did Eddie and Keela work as a team prior to the Madeleine McCann case?
« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2015, 10:52:10 PM »
For which there are about half a dozen anecdotal reports of success, if that. Even a stopped clock is correct twice a day. Why wheel in Keela if the aim is not to pinpoint potential forensic evidence?

You're edging towards sounding like ferryman...just because YOU don't know the past case histories and successes doesn't mean there were none

Offline Carana

Re: Did Eddie and Keela work as a team prior to the Madeleine McCann case?
« Reply #26 on: September 24, 2015, 11:15:14 AM »
You're edging towards sounding like ferryman...just because YOU don't know the past case histories and successes doesn't mean there were none


I can only go from what Grime says on his profile... I see two (Devon and Cornwall) cases in which he correctly identified what may well have been residual cadaver scent (or possibly residual blood or other scent within his parameters).

In the two others, there was human material present (one of unspecified nature and another of blood).

(I've left out New Mexico, as Eddie didn't alert even though there was a body as it had been wrapped in plastic and buried under concrete.)

- N. Ireland (ATTRACTA HARRON): Eddie reacted to the physical presence of "human material".
- Wiltshire (AMANDA EDWARDS): reacted to the physical presence of blood. Then identified a deposition site, where presumably a body was found.
- Devon (CHARLOTTE PINKNEY): the dog alerted to her button, and a confession followed to confirm.
- Cornwall (?): the dog alerted to a carpet, and a confession followed to confirm.



We know from the FOI on deployments between 2003 and 2007 that working on his own with Eddie, he found one body. Another four were with Ellis / Frankie, so it's not clear which dog found them, or if they separately both corroborated the finds without the other handler / dog pair knowing in advance. If Eddie found them independently of Frankie,  it is still because there were bodies there.

We also know from the FOI that:

"Out of the twenty occasions where the dog teams were deployed together, two deployments were in the South Yorkshire Police Force area and the remainder were out of the force.

All seventeen deployments for Grime/Eddie working alone were to external forces."

And from whichever version of Grime's profile:

Northern Ireland, UK
A missing person, last seen returning from church, on foot, in N. Ireland. The
search of suspects 'burnt out vehicle' by forensic scientists did not reveal any
evidence. A search by the E.V.R.D. identified a position in the rear passenger
foot well where the dog alerted to the presence of human material. A sample
was taken and when analysed revealed the victims' DNA. The enquiry then
concentrated its efforts on the suspect and the E.V.R.D. located the body of
the woman in a river bank deposition site. Further searches identified a
Vol. IX p. 2482

location where the E.V.R.D. alerted in the front bedroom of the offenders
empty next door dwelling house. When interviewed the suspect admitted that
the body had lain in the room for 1 hour prior to disposal. Forensic teams
were unable to extract any forensic evidence despite being shown the exact
position.

Wiltshire, UK
A female was abducted by her ex-boyfriend. Intelligence suggested that her
ex-boy friend had taken her to his house. A search by the EVRD of the house
resulted in small blood stains being alert indicated and forensically confirmed
as her blood. The suspect, a builder, was in possession of a van. This was
searched and the EVRD dog alerted to a 'wacker plate', spirtit level, and
shovel. A site was identified where the suspect had been working. The EVRD
then located the body deposition site in an area of a garbage base that had
been prepared by the suspect. He had returned with the dead girl, dug a
grave in the centre, placed the body in the hole, replaced the spoil and then
used the shovel, wacker plate and spirit level to return the ground to its
original state.

Devon, UK
A female was abducted and her whereabouts were unknown. The suspect
was a bus driver. An initial search by the E.V.R.D. alerted at a location near
to a sighting of the suspect in suspicious circumstances. A forensic search at
the alert location revealed a small button off of the girls clothing in long grass.
The offender confessed to the murder and confirmed her body had been
initially temporarily placed at the dog's alert location.

Cornwall, UK
A woman was reported missing by her partner. A search of the suspects
house by the EVRD was conducted who indicated on the living room carpet.
No forensic evidence was recovered. Subsequently a diary written by the
suspect was alert indicated by the dog. The diary had written extracts that the
offender had laid the victim on the carpet whilst dead, the diary had in fact
been written by the suspect having handled the body. This was confirmed by
the offender in interview.

New Mexico, U.S.A.
A witness reported having seen two men walk off into brush land carrying a
spade and a corpse. The area was searched with the EVRD with no
indications being forthcoming. Other assets were utilised and the body was
found: buried at a depth of 8 feet, under the water table, 3 feet of cement and
5 feet of earth replaced on top the corpse that was wrapped in cling film.
There being no scent available to the dog to receive there was no forthcoming


Edited to correct incorrect detail.

« Last Edit: September 26, 2015, 12:52:10 PM by Carana »

Offline Carana

Re: Did Eddie and Keela work as a team prior to the Madeleine McCann case?
« Reply #27 on: September 24, 2015, 11:30:48 AM »
try googling malpeet k9
It has been sort of disables in the past 30 minutes!!
Nonetheless it linked to this which was the interesting bit:
http://www.nasdu.co.uk/about-nasdu/aims-objectives/

Many thanks, Alice, but that seems to be about security dogs.

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Did Eddie and Keela work as a team prior to the Madeleine McCann case?
« Reply #28 on: September 24, 2015, 01:02:30 PM »
Many thanks, Alice, but that seems to be about security dogs.

And detection dogs.
The point, however, being that the lack of national accreditation seems to extend to all sorts of woofers.
So labouring my earlier point: if there is no national accreditation supervised by a NOBO how can any one make any serious comment derogatory or otherwise if there is no common datum on which to base the comment ?
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Did Eddie and Keela work as a team prior to the Madeleine McCann case?
« Reply #29 on: September 24, 2015, 01:06:16 PM »
And detection dogs.
The point, however, being that the lack of national accreditation seems to extend to all sorts of woofers.
So labouring my earlier point: if there is no national accreditation supervised by a NOBO how can any one make any serious comment derogatory or otherwise if there is no common datum on which to base the comment ?

the lack of accreditation is one of the reasons why they can only be judged on confirmed results...the alerts themselves are meaningless...it's what is found that counts