Did Eddie and Keela work as a team prior to the Madeleine McCann case?

[Anna]

There were mandatory training sesssions though. Unless those were led by each force, simply following ACPO guidelines.

This is not related to cadaver dogs, but it does mention the annual test, accredited police dog instructors, etc, which I would assume covers all professional trainers and dog types
………………………………........................................


What qualifications should

  the trainers have?




All our trainers are either retired Police Dog Handlers or retired Home Office Accredited Police Dog Instructors who have had years of experience in training, working and handling police dogs in real situations.

Our trainers have encountered violent criminals in the real world,

not just on the sports field.




Home Office Accredited Police Dog Instructors have to attend a very in depth training course under stringent supervision and continuously being assessed.

Many fail due to the course being so demanding.




Police Dog Handlers are trained for thirteen weeks to achieve a basic level of competence as a dog handler and are then trained continuously until they reach Home Office Set Standards.

From that point, Police Dog Handlers are subject to an annual test where they and their dogs are tested on every aspect of dog handling and both the dog and handler are assessed.




Further to the annual test, the team of handler and dog are required to complete a two week refresher course on an annual basis and if successful, they are licensed for a further twelve months. Any dog or handler that fails will not be re-licensed.




We are time served police dog handlers and Instructors, not sports trainers.




Why not ask your prospective provider can they produce their credentials?




If they are not qualified to Home Office Standards, we would ask you,




which trainer would you prefer?

http://www.trainedprotectiondogs.co.uk/qualifications

[misty]

Something of interest, one dog trained on cadaver & the other on blood & cadaver.


http://www.staffs.ac.uk/assets/Simon%20Newbery_tcm44-19866.pdf

[Carana]

This is not related to cadaver dogs, but it does mention the annual test, accredited police dog instructors, etc, which I would assume covers all professional trainers and dog types
………………………………........................................


What qualifications should

  the trainers have?




All our trainers are either retired Police Dog Handlers or retired Home Office Accredited Police Dog Instructors who have had years of experience in training, working and handling police dogs in real situations.

Our trainers have encountered violent criminals in the real world,

not just on the sports field.




Home Office Accredited Police Dog Instructors have to attend a very in depth training course under stringent supervision and continuously being assessed.

Many fail due to the course being so demanding.




Police Dog Handlers are trained for thirteen weeks to achieve a basic level of competence as a dog handler and are then trained continuously until they reach Home Office Set Standards.

From that point, Police Dog Handlers are subject to an annual test where they and their dogs are tested on every aspect of dog handling and both the dog and handler are assessed.




Further to the annual test, the team of handler and dog are required to complete a two week refresher course on an annual basis and if successful, they are licensed for a further twelve months. Any dog or handler that fails will not be re-licensed.




We are time served police dog handlers and Instructors, not sports trainers.




Why not ask your prospective provider can they produce their credentials?




If they are not qualified to Home Office Standards, we would ask you,




which trainer would you prefer?

http://www.trainedprotectiondogs.co.uk/qualifications

Thanks Anna. I had a vague memory of having read that, hence my previous post.

However, that seems to state that retired police officers are instructors.

It's not quite clear whether former police officers can renew accreditation as handlers. Perhaps they can, and the wording just isn't clear.

It doesn't say that a former officer can't renew accreditation as a handler either. But if it was open, why let accreditation expire? Grime might have been too busy to take two weeks off, I suppose. He was in a flurry of professional activity at the time, which could be a reason.

[Anna]

I see your point, FM, but dried blood is surely still part of a composite odour of decomposing human remains. Someone slices off the tip of a finger... there are still the components of blood in it.

A 200-year-old bone would have been in contact with blood at some point, although I suppose any trace of it would be long gone.

A few substances may not contain blood per se, but any major trauma leading to the evacuation of such substances may well leave a trace in the area of forensic interest.

This is how I understand it, from perusal of different articles. Don't ask me which....Please!

Fresh blood or dried blood from a living person is like a fresh vegetable, not yet rotted, or a dried vegetable that can not rot.
Blood within a cadaver is decomposing along with the body and therefore gives off Putriscine and cadaverine .
"Cadaver Scent"

Human blood in liquid form can be kept in a sealed container until it has decomposed. This can then be used to replicate a dead body in training of cadaver dogs.
..........................................................................
 I believe the last part came from an American book. They can get out of date blood from Labs etc, or blood soaked bandages from elsewhere. Yuk!

[ferryman]

Something of interest, one dog trained on cadaver & the other on blood & cadaver.


http://www.staffs.ac.uk/assets/Simon%20Newbery_tcm44-19866.pdf

Interesting:

...  however more
recently, a new aspect of cadaver detection work has been used in criminal investigations in
which dogs are deployed to search for blood that has been in an area or on an object for various
lengths of time and is in various stages of decomposition

Article dated 2008.

Grime was slightly ahead of his time.

Or maybe not ....

[Carana]

This is how I understand it, from perusal of different articles. Don't ask me which....Please!

Fresh blood or dried blood from a living person is like a fresh vegetable, not yet rotted, or a dried vegetable that can not rot.
Blood within a cadaver is decomposing along with the body and therefore gives off Putriscine and cadaverine .
"Cadaver Scent"

Human blood in liquid form can be kept in a sealed container until it has decomposed. This can then be used to replicate a dead body in training of cadaver dogs.
..........................................................................
 I believe the last part came from an American book. They can get out of date blood from Labs etc, or blood soaked bandages from elsewhere. Yuk!

I wouldn't count too much on putrescine and cadaverine as there are hundreds of compounds which vary over tme and which depend on what human remain material has been found.

Presumably, they can freeze human blood, or leave it to dry on a swab in an oven, if they really want, so that's not an issue.

My question is how and why would any police force wish to spend a fortune on a dog that is trained to react to decomposing human remains devoid of any blood. That would seem to be more of a Michael Jackson Thriller zombie scenario than reality.

[Carana]

Interesting:

...  however more
recently, a new aspect of cadaver detection work has been used in criminal investigations in
which dogs are deployed to search for blood that has been in an area or on an object for various
lengths of time and is in various stages of decomposition

Article dated 2008.

Grime was slightly ahead of his time.

Or maybe not ....

At the time, Keela appears to have been a novelty for SYP. And Grime took her when he left which, presumably, he was entitled to do.


ETA: I can quite understand that Eddie left with Grime, as Eddie was getting old anyway (aged 7), probably wouldn't have adapted to a different handler for the remainder of his working life, and they were both attached to each other. When younger, Ellis was apparently Eddie's trainer (unless the article is incorrect).

Keela, on the other hand was only 3 and she was a highly specialised dog.

I have no idea what's involved in retiring with a young dog. Perhaps there just wasn't enough demand for her in bureaucracyland to justify the expense. Grime disagreed and left with her as well?

[Brietta]

At the time, Keela appears to have been a novelty for SYP. And Grime took her when he left which, presumably, he was entitled to do.

Keela was trained to be very specific ... blood only.

Useful in detecting a murder weapon discarded in bushes or even identifying a blunt instrument which had been used as a weapon for example, an ornament.

But is such specialism to blood necessary for decomp. dogs?  For example, Eddie alerted where she did.

[Carana]

Keela was trained to be very specific ... blood only.

Useful in detecting a murder weapon discarded in bushes or even identifying a blunt instrument which had been used as a weapon for example, an ornament.

But is such specialism to blood necessary for decomp. dogs?  For example, Eddie alerted where she did.

I added a bit to my previous post...

I can understand why a highly specialised dog (e.g. Keela) could be an asset, but only if there is enough demand to justify the expense.

If a general VR dog woofs, you can have a UV torch around and find possible areas of interest. Or spay Luminol, which doesn't just react to blood. In that sense, her ability to zoom in on human blood and only that could saved money on potentially irrelevant tests revealed by other means.

On the other hand, was there sufficient demand for her particular skills to justify keeping her on the payroll at a time of cutbacks?

Perhaps specialist dogs related to explosives or drugs were still on the top of the list to be kept?

[Alice Purjorick]

With the alternative being to forfeit ACPO accreditation ....

As there is no national accreditation system and ACPO only issue guidelines what precisely is "ACPO Accreditation"? One presumes anything ACPO is valid only for serving police officers and serving police dogs and will expire on retirement from the force. Once one is in "civvy street" how does one and ones dawg become accredited there being no national system?

Why don't you cut the chase ferryman and just state your opinion instead of playing ping pong in an attempt to justify your prejudiced position?

[ferryman]

Keela was trained to be very specific ... blood only.

Useful in detecting a murder weapon discarded in bushes or even identifying a blunt instrument which had been used as a weapon for example, an ornament.

But is such specialism to blood necessary for decomp. dogs?  For example, Eddie alerted where she did.

I've thought it through again and Carana is right (for an obvious reason).  Whether it's possible or not, there is no advantage to a cadaver dog desensitised to the scent of blood, because if your human remains dog won't react to it, your blood dog is rendered redundant by default.  The blood dog will never be deployed

So what is the advantage of a dog trained to find nothing but blood?

[G-Unit]

I've thought it through again and Carana is right (for an obvious reason).  Whether it's possible or not, there is no advantage to a cadaver dog desensitised to the scent of blood, because if your human remains dog won't react to it, your blood dog is rendered redundant by default.  The blood dog will never be deployed

So what is the advantage of a dog trained to find nothing but blood?

Because it finds and 'points' to specks of blood invisible to the naked eye. The human remains dog doesn't do that.

[Carana]

I've thought it through again and Carana is right (for an obvious reason).  Whether it's possible or not, there is no advantage to a cadaver dog desensitised to the scent of blood, because if your human remains dog won't react to it, your blood dog is rendered redundant by default.  The blood dog will never be deployed

So what is the advantage of a dog trained to find nothing but blood?

The same advantage as any super-specialised dog. Pinpointing the physical remains of human blood in her case. In  a different type of specialised dog, an alert could indicate e.g., a particular type of substance related to explosives, which could give invaluable intelligence quickly, even if it later turns out to be a false alert.

[Carana]

Because it finds and 'points' to specks of blood invisible to the naked eye. The human remains dog doesn't do that.

Torches can do that, except that torches can also show up specks that aren't necessarily blood.

[G-Unit]

Torches can do that, except that torches can also show up specks that aren't necessarily blood.

If they're invisible to the naked eye, how does shining a light help?