Did Eddie and Keela work as a team prior to the Madeleine McCann case?

[Alice Purjorick]

the lack of accreditation is one of the reasons why they can only be judged on confirmed results...the alerts themselves are meaningless...it's what is found that counts

What they found led to some analysis being done by FSS who concluded:

Conclusion
In my opinion, the laboratory results that were attained did not help to clarify whether or not the DNA results obtained within the scope of this case were from Madeleine McCann.

[Carana]

And detection dogs.
The point, however, being that the lack of national accreditation seems to extend to all sorts of woofers.
So labouring my earlier point: if there is no national accreditation supervised by a NOBO how can any one make any serious comment derogatory or otherwise if there is no common datum on which to base the comment ?

He (and dogs) seem to have been accredited via ACPO until his retirement. (Op Havern states July 07, the FOI states August 07).

I have no problem with the idea that Grime may have personally trained his dogs to a level beyond that in order to prepare for a solo career. Why not?

My problem is how Eddie's successes got blown out of all proportion, particularly in relation to detecting "residual cadaver scent". That's not all his fault, even if he - perhaps unwittingly - made Eddie appear to be more of a superwoof than he actually was and PJ leaks did the rest, followed by the superwoof videos.

It's not clear to me at all in the two cases cited above what residual scent he was responding to within the dog's training parameters. Cadaver? Blood? Semen?

Even if Grime can't answer questions on the McCann case, why can't he answer them in general, or to a different case which is done and dusted?

Op Havern
3.10.11 We now deal with the introduction of Martin GRIME and his Enhanced
Victim Recovery Dog (EVRD) to Operation Rectangle. Operation
Haven has established through enquiry with the NPIA, that
Martin GRIME was an ACPO accredited dog handler whilst he was a
serving police officer, but forfeited accreditation upon his retirement in
July 2007. We mentioned that Mr GRIME remains on the ACPO
accredited list of experts though his EVRD is no longer accredited by
ACPO. Whilst Martin GRIME’s original contract to Jersey was for five
days, his actual deployment lasted for 130 days.

[Carana]

What they found led to some analysis being done by FSS who concluded:

Conclusion
In my opinion, the laboratory results that were attained did not help to clarify whether or not the DNA results obtained within the scope of this case were from Madeleine McCann.

It was Keela who alerted to the boot, not Eddie.

She was only trained to alert to human blood. In a mixture of DNA from 3-5 people, with a trace of presumed blood so small that it couldn't be identified as such, there is no way of knowing who that belonged to, if indeed there ever was any.

Another point, did the PJ forensic chap who drove the car wear gloves or not when driving the Scenic? On both hands... at all times? If so, were they fresh?

[ferryman]

How do you desensitise a VR dog to blood? I can see how one could be trained to only alert to blood, but not how it could be desensitised to it.

What decomposing human remains, which is what a forensic VR dog is supposed to sniff out, would not have an associated smell of blood?

I don't know, but equally, I don't know how you train a dog not to bark.

You can, and the trick with Eddie (and other dogs of his type) is still cleverer; the canine equivalents of elective mutes, trained to bark on specific occasions and to a particular scent, but to no other scent and at no other time.

How do they do that?

I've no idea, but they do.

[Carana]

I don't know, but equally, I don't know how you train a dog not to bark.

You can, and the trick with Eddie (and other dogs of his type) is still cleverer; the canine equivalents of elective mutes, trained to bark on specific occasions and to a particular scent, but to no other scent and at no other time.

How do they do that?

I've no idea, but they do.

Yes, I know that dogs can be trained to bark or attack in certain situations and not in others, e.g., the poor old postie isn't necessarily a burglar, unless he/ she pops down the chimney at midnight  at times other than Xmas.

That's not really my question: how do you dissociate the smell of blood from bits of human remains that either contain blood or have had blood swishing around them?

[ferryman]

Yes, I know that dogs can be trained to bark or attack in certain situations and not in others, e.g., the poor old postie isn't necessarily a burglar, unless he/ she pops down the chimney at midnight  at times other than Xmas.

That's not really my question: how do you dissociate the smell of blood from bits of human remains that either contain blood or have had blood swishing around them?

All dogs detect all scents, innately, to a much higher level of acuity than humans.

What a dog reacts to is determined by training.

Necessarily and by definition, that must entail filtering out, or excluding, the scents you don't want a dog to react to. 

[Brietta]

I don't know, but equally, I don't know how you train a dog not to bark.

You can, and the trick with Eddie (and other dogs of his type) is still cleverer; the canine equivalents of elective mutes, trained to bark on specific occasions and to a particular scent, but to no other scent and at no other time.

How do they do that?

I've no idea, but they do.

Like Carana I have no idea how a dog trained to find any one of the components which make up the so called "scent of death" collectively and individually can be desensitised to blood ... mainly because it is not known exactly what their nose is telling them is there.
I don't really see what the point of taking blood out of the equation since I think blood is part and parcel of the smell of decay. 

I believe I've seen it said that it is possible Eddie and Keela's visit to Praia da Luz followed by Eddie's visit to Haute de la Garenne were poor representations of what working dogs are capable of doing ... perhaps this is a legacy of that too.  Unless someone has a good explanation of the reasoning behind why a dog should be desensitised to blood.

[ferryman]

Like Carana I have no idea how a dog trained to find any one of the components which make up the so called "scent of death" collectively and individually can be desensitised to blood ... mainly because it is not known exactly what their nose is telling them is there.
I don't really see what the point of taking blood out of the equation since I think blood is part and parcel of the smell of decay. 

I believe I've seen it said that it is possible Eddie and Keela's visit to Praia da Luz followed by Eddie's visit to Haute de la Garenne were poor representations of what working dogs are capable of doing ... perhaps this is a legacy of that too.  Unless someone has a good explanation of the reasoning behind why a dog should be desensitised to blood.

The whole point about the cadaver dog and blood dog combination is that blood is not taken out of the equation, because you have a dog with the capability to find it.

If you read the press coverage of the Bianca Jones case (as I have) you'll see that there was a huge pre-trial debate about whether an uncorroborated cadaver dog-alert should be accepted as stand-alone evidence of murder (a much stronger position than in Scotland, where such an alert is merely regarded as indicative, rather than proof).

In the press coverage (of the D'Lane case) Morse is described as one of only 6 dogs (sic) in the country (presumably the States, and by implication, the world) that does what Morse does (or did!)

What would be the point of teaming up two dogs that both the same thing?

[Carana]

Whatever the latest training tools are, at the time Eddie (and presumably others) were trained on decaying piglets and human blood.

I suppose you could take human blood out of the extra training.

However, unless decaying pig blood smells substantially different to human blood, which seems unlikely, wouldn't they also react to pig and therefore human blood?

[Alice Purjorick]

He (and dogs) seem to have been accredited via ACPO until his retirement. (Op Havern states July 07, the FOI states August 07).

I have no problem with the idea that Grime may have personally trained his dogs to a level beyond that in order to prepare for a solo career. Why not?

My problem is how Eddie's successes got blown out of all proportion, particularly in relation to detecting "residual cadaver scent". That's not all his fault, even if he - perhaps unwittingly - made Eddie appear to be more of a superwoof than he actually was and PJ leaks did the rest, followed by the superwoof videos.

It's not clear to me at all in the two cases cited above what residual scent he was responding to within the dog's training parameters. Cadaver? Blood? Semen?

Even if Grime can't answer questions on the McCann case, why can't he answer them in general, or to a different case which is done and dusted?

Op Havern
3.10.11 We now deal with the introduction of Martin GRIME and his Enhanced
Victim Recovery Dog (EVRD) to Operation Rectangle. Operation
Haven has established through enquiry with the NPIA, that
Martin GRIME was an ACPO accredited dog handler whilst he was a
serving police officer, but forfeited accreditation upon his retirement in
July 2007. We mentioned that Mr GRIME remains on the ACPO
accredited list of experts though his EVRD is no longer accredited by
ACPO. Whilst Martin GRIME’s original contract to Jersey was for five
days, his actual deployment lasted for 130 days.

ACPO gave guidelines only.

[ferryman]

Something else to think about.

My principal objection to the inspection of vehicles at PdL has long been the risk of precisely what occurred: an innocent scent within the dogs' scent-range  that might have been replicated in any of the other cars, which could only have risked confusion for the dog.

In Detroit, there was another line-up of cars (much longer than in PdL).

If the dog is desensitised to blood, there is much less likely to be confusion, because you won't get cadaver scent in more than one car.

An inspection of a line-up of cars makes (more!) sense if carried out by a dog that detects only cadaver scent.

Of course, at SYP, Eddie had already been in service some years before Keela happened along.  Keela was a sort of ad hoc addition, distinct from a cadaver dog and blood dog combination tailored to work in tandem from the start ....

[Carana]

ACPO gave guidelines only.

There were mandatory training sesssions though. Unless those were led by each force, simply following ACPO guidelines.

[ferryman]

There were mandatory training sesssions though. Unless those were led by each force, simply following ACPO guidelines.

With the alternative being to forfeit ACPO accreditation ....

[Carana]

Something else to think about.

My principal objection to the inspection of vehicles at PdL has long been the risk of precisely what occurred: an innocent scent within the dogs' scent-range  that might have been replicated in any of the other cars, which could only have risked confusion for the dog.

In Detroit, there was another line-up of cars (much longer than in PdL).

If the dog is desensitised to blood, there is much less likely to be confusion, because you won't get cadaver scent in more than one car.

An inspection of a line-up of cars makes (more!) sense if carried out by a dog that detects only cadaver scent.

Of course, at SYP, Eddie had already been in service some years before Keela happened along.  Keela was a sort of ad hoc addition, distinct from a cadaver dog and blood dog combination tailored to work in tandem from the start ....

I see your point, FM, but dried blood is surely still part of a composite odour of decomposing human remains. Someone slices off the tip of a finger... there are still the components of blood in it.

A 200-year-old bone would have been in contact with blood at some point, although I suppose any trace of it would be long gone.

A few substances may not contain blood per se, but any major trauma leading to the evacuation of such substances may well leave a trace in the area of forensic interest.

[Carana]

With the alternative being to forfeit ACPO accreditation ....

I don't enough about how ACPO accreditation would have worked once he'd retired. Could a private dog handler apply for ACPO accreditation, or did it require being an actively serving police officer?