Is it possible to have a child forum devoted to those who do not speak English?

[ShiningInLuz]

Here is how I arrived at this question (or request).

The Crimewatch 2013/CMTV 2013 programmes raised the problem of the language barrier, and more.

Crimewatch 2013 was not broadcast in Portugal.  This struck me as a truly significant opportunity that was missed.

I have been slogging away on ShiningInLuz drawing up a 'perfect' transcript of the YouTube version in English.  It is now complete. Anyone who wants one for whatever purpose, please feel free to copy and paste to wherever you think it should appear, as my aim was to 'get it out there'.

My next step on this is to produce a simplified, or cleaned-up version.  I want this so anyone can put it through an automatic translator, and get a really good idea of what Crimewatch 2013 was about.  Not perfect, but not riddled with translation errors.  And that means in languages where I haven't got a clue, like German, Russian, Greek, Japanese, Chinese, Arabic etc.

So I am now taking out things that are irrelevant, the ermms, the repetitions etc. etc.  I also need to replace constructs that are peculiar to English and words or phrases that I know do not translate well.  At the same time I need to retain as far as possible the original meaning.

When I am happy with it, I will post this simplified transcript in the Crimewatch 2013 thread on here, because a few readers may pick it up and use it to progress the discussion of the case.

However, if it remains in an English-language thread, it will have little impact on the audience the transcript was actually aimed at, namely, those people who's English is limited, but who speak Portuguese (Portugal, Brazil, plus other odd places like Angola).  Those people won't plough through dozens of pages in English in the hope that there is something relevant in Portuguese squirreled away somewhere.

My line of thought, therefore, was that a child forum in Portuguese overcomes this major obstacle.

It becomes perfectly straight-forward to put a high-quality transcript of Crimewatch 2013 out to a Portuguese audience, AND to attach contact details that are easy and effective for such people.

Personally, I doubt that this will achieve a breakthrough, but it would mean this forum is streets ahead of anywhere else in having some chance of generating a result.

Whilst working on the 'perfect' transcript, other events have occurred that suggest strongly that limiting a child forum to Portuguese is not the best option.  At this point in time, it seems it would be better to have a child forum which deals in all languages other than English.

Let me move on to the practical obstacles.

First and foremost is how one moderates a sub-forum devoted to foreign languages.  My first crack at an answer is to restrict this to a post that can be checked e.g. my Portuguese version of Crimewatch 2013 will go through a Portuguese to English translation to verify its accuracy.

A second is how we, users of this forum, get something back out, something that adds to our understanding.  I can see two options on this.  First, that ALL replies are stacked for moderator approval (bring on auto translate), or second, that replies are permitted as normal, and the moderators just junk that which does not auto translate properly (and after that conforms to the house rules).

Note, it takes a simple line of explanation to put the onus onto the submitter - their post must auto translate to clear English or it gets zapped.

This is a long explanation for a simple request, and I need to get back to working on my simplified English transcript.

So to close, can we have a child forum which is devoted to those people who do not speak English?

[ferryman]

That's a mammoth task you've undertaken there Shining, and all credit to you for it.

I don't quite follow what you mean by a 'child forum'.

Do you not want a forum equally accessible to all?

[Brietta]

I'm exhausted just reading that, Shining, quite exciting though.

[pegasus]

IMO just a portuguese transcript would be good, as that is the language of portugal (a fact of geography which SY and BBC could easily have looked up on wiki but they didnt). I would forget other languages. It would be good to get it checked by a full bilingual like astro, joana, etc (if they haven't already done one). And there must already be be a portuguese language forum about this case somewhere? 

[ShiningInLuz]

That's a mammoth task you've undertaken there Shining, and all credit to you for it.

I don't quite follow what you mean by a 'child forum'.

Do you not want a forum equally accessible to all?

All of the forums that hang off the Madeleine forum are called child forums - have a look at the main page on the (the Madeleine forum).  Another term would be sub-forum, but on here they seem to be called child forums.

It isn't actually a mammoth task for me.  There is material, mainly in English language programmes, that has not been put into a format that is universally available.

I have started doing this on my blog - putting English material out to a wider audience.  So this idea is already in motion.

MiscarriageofJustice has a wider reach, hence I would like similar material to appear here, purely so it reaches a wider audience.

Equally accessible to all is problematic.  When I get it constructed, if I put my Portuguese trascrpt of Crimewatch 2013 into the English thread here for the same thing, it will die an instant death.  Nobody wades through page after page of exchanges in English hoping there may be a nugget of information in Portuguese.  Would you wade through 10 pages of Portuguese in the hope that one post might be in English?

The incident occurred in Portugal.  The Crimewatch appeal has not been broadcast in Portuguese.  I believe MiscarriageofJustice can right this particular wrong.

[ShiningInLuz]

IMO just a portuguese transcript would be good, as that is the language of portugal (a fact of geography which SY and BBC could easily have looked up on wiki but they didnt). I would forget other languages. It would be good to get it checked by a full bilingual like astro, joana, etc (if they haven't already done one). And there must already be be a portuguese language forum about this case somewhere?

If there is a proper Portuguese language forum about this case, I am blissfully ignorant of it.  I have seen zero on numerous Google searches over the last 16 months.

My proposed method of checking the translation is astoundingly simple.  Once I have converted the 'proper' English transcript to a 'simplified' English transcript, I will then auto-translate to Portuguese. 

I will then check the Portuguese for known issues.  E-fit, crucial in the Smithman story, does not translate into recognisable Portuguese.  I will also check for other obvious bloopers, and my Portuguese is good enough for that. 

Finally, I will auto-translate back to English.

Now! If I get something that is a fairly good match to what I put in, it is good to go!  If not, I will know exactly where the problems are.

I MAY have on board someone whose fluency in Portuguese exceeds mine, but that option would not be for the donkey work, but rather for a final bit of fine polishing.

[pegasus]

(snip)... I MAY have on board someone whose fluency in Portuguese exceeds mine, but that option would not be for the donkey work, but rather for a final bit of fine polishing.

Yes most of the work is in typing out a good translation (then would be fairly easy  for a complete bilingual to check against the english original crimewatch).
How on earth did SY decide to use the BBC to publish this smithman appeal? - "Oh we need to appeal to witnesses in portugal who speak portuguese who live or stayed near Rua 25 Abril, I know let's do it in english language only and broadcast it only in the UK and if any TV stations in Portugal ask to translate it and broadcast there let's just say sorry legal reasons".
 

[G-Unit]

Yes most of the work is in typing out a good translation (then would be fairly easy  for a complete bilingual to check against the english original crimewatch).
How on earth did SY decide to use the BBC to publish this smithman appeal? - "Oh we need to appeal to witnesses in portugal who speak portuguese who live or stayed near Rua 25 Abril, I know let's do it in english language only and broadcast it only in the UK and if any TV stations in Portugal ask to translate it and broadcast there let's just say sorry legal reasons".

I can think of some possible reasons.

1. They had a good idea who the e-fits represented and just wanted to find people who would confirm it, or who had seen him elsewhere with or without a child. This suggests that the programme was aimed at tourists, not locals.
2. It was just a PR exercise to demonstrate that they were progressing.
3. Judicial secrecy didn't allow the programme to be shown in Portugal (hence the 'legal reasons').
4. They wanted to officially eliminate Tannerman, the main suspect for 6 years.

[lordpookles]

Subforum = child forum? Haven't heard forum structure described that way before. In programming child and parent are commonly used.

[Brietta]

If there is a proper Portuguese language forum about this case, I am blissfully ignorant of it.  I have seen zero on numerous Google searches over the last 16 months.

My proposed method of checking the translation is astoundingly simple.  Once I have converted the 'proper' English transcript to a 'simplified' English transcript, I will then auto-translate to Portuguese. 

I will then check the Portuguese for known issues.  E-fit, crucial in the Smithman story, does not translate into recognisable Portuguese.  I will also check for other obvious bloopers, and my Portuguese is good enough for that. 

Finally, I will auto-translate back to English.

Now! If I get something that is a fairly good match to what I put in, it is good to go!  If not, I will know exactly where the problems are.

I MAY have on board someone whose fluency in Portuguese exceeds mine, but that option would not be for the donkey work, but rather for a final bit of fine polishing.

If you are prepared to put the work in (you are downplaying the the time and effort potentially involved I feel) it sounds like a good idea.  Particularly if there is nothing available in Portuguese.

What sort of information do you envisage disseminating in Portuguese?  Opinion or only official Scotland Yard backed appeals, press releases (on which their hands are apparently tied - perhaps in anticipation of legal action in Portugal).

[pegasus]

How about this one sentence but in portuguese language

"If you were walking down R Escola at about 10pm 3 May 2007 carrying a young sleeping girl and crossed R Abril towards T Escadhinas (map), and passed a group of foreign tourist adults and children going the other way, please help by ringing us at (portuguese number with portuguese operator) so we can rule you out, ta, SY."

Não é ciência de foguetes

[jassi]

Has this one easy sentence ever been broadcast in portuguese in portugal?

"If you were walking down R Escola at about 10pm 3 May 2007 carrying a young sleeping girl and crossed R Abril towards T Escadhinas, and passed a group of foreign tourist adults and children going the other way, please help by ringing us at this number (portuguese number with portuguese speaking operator) so we can rule you out, ta, SY."

The content is good, but it would be better to broadcast it in every country in the native language, as there is no clue as to the nationality of Smithman.

This is something the McCanns could have done with the fund money, except, of course, they chose to discount Smithman and  put their effort into Tannerman.

[pegasus]

The content is good, but it would be better to broadcast it in every country in the native language, as there is no clue as to the nationality of Smithman.

This is something the McCanns could have done with the fund money, except, of course, they chose to discount Smithman and  put their effort into Tannerman.

If this had happened in England (even in a town with popular with foreign tourists) the appeal would have been broadcast in .......

[jassi]

If this had happened in England (even in a town with popular with foreign tourists) the appeal would have been broadcast in .......

Broadly speaking UK doesn't have holiday villages heavily populated by foreigners, but certainly broadcasting throughout Europe may be well worthwhile in similar circumstances

[Brietta]

The content is good, but it would be better to broadcast it in every country in the native language, as there is no clue as to the nationality of Smithman.

This is something the McCanns could have done with the fund money, except, of course, they chose to discount Smithman and  put their effort into Tannerman.

It is actually something the Policia Judicairia had the means to accomplish ... the will to do so is a different question.