Author Topic: Re: Is wiggy correct about there being reasonable doubt?  (Read 5157 times)

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david1819

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Re: Is wiggy correct about there being reasonable doubt?
« on: November 28, 2015, 06:54:38 PM »
If it makes you feel better to see it that way fine, However the fact of the matter is harder for you to swallow. Over and over again you get things wrong and wont admit or realise it.

Mugford had her criminal charges dropped by the director of public prosecutions in exchange for being a prosecution witness against Jeremy.

How you can read the above evidence and see it differently is testimony to [ moderated ]

« Last Edit: December 09, 2015, 06:05:20 PM by John »

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Is wiggy correct about there being reasonable doubt?
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2015, 07:36:13 AM »
If it makes you feel better to see it that way fine, However the fact of the matter is harder for you to swallow. Over and over again you get things wrong and wont admit or realise it.

Mugford had her criminal charges dropped by the director of public prosecutions in exchange for being a prosecution witness against Jeremy.

How you can read the above evidence and see it differently is testimony to [ moderated ]

Nothing you posted establishes the charges were dropped in exchange for her agreeing to testify.  Indeed the reaosn for the charges being dropped was related SPECIFICALLY to the charges.  That she was to be called as a witness was a separate issue.  The judges know this as does everyone who is both objective and informed.  You are not in the least bit objective and just keep spouting the same nonsense the COA and others rejected long ago.  You take nonsense form Jeremy's lawyers then say it is true because you say so.  You are a legend in your own mind.

“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline APRIL

Re: Is wiggy correct about there being reasonable doubt?
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2015, 10:04:55 AM »
Nothing you posted establishes the charges were dropped in exchange for her agreeing to testify.  Indeed the reaosn for the charges being dropped was related SPECIFICALLY to the charges.  That she was to be called as a witness was a separate issue.  The judges know this as does everyone who is both objective and informed.  You are not in the least bit objective and just keep spouting the same nonsense the COA and others rejected long ago.  You take nonsense form Jeremy's lawyers then say it is true because you say so.  You are a legend in your own mind.

But the very act of "advising her of the Directors decision 'NOT' to prosecute" must surely suggest that it HAD, at some point, been a possibility they'd made her aware of.

Offline adam

Re: Is wiggy correct about there being reasonable doubt?
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2015, 04:29:46 PM »
Julie had completed her WS before anyone knew about the the 1984 joint minor cheque book fraud.

If you approach the police and complete a WS, don't you have to testify at trial ?

Seems a bit pointless in Julie approaching the police and completing a WS, then refusing to testify.

If Julie wanted to retract and decided she did not want to testify,  the police threatening her with prosecution over a joint minor cheque book fraud from 1984 will not change her mind. Committing perjury at trial or Bamber being found 'not guilty' is much worse for her.

Offline APRIL

Re: Is wiggy correct about there being reasonable doubt?
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2015, 04:59:29 PM »
Julie had completed her WS before anyone knew about the the 1984 joint minor cheque book fraud.

If you approach the police and complete a WS, don't you have to testify at trial ?

Seems a bit pointless in Julie approaching the police and completing a WS, then refusing to testify.

If Julie wanted to retract and decided she did not want to testify,  the police threatening her with prosecution over a joint minor cheque book fraud from 1984 will not change her mind. Committing perjury at trial or Bamber being found 'not guilty' is much worse for her.


You seem not to have taken into account what the potential threat of losing her future career would have meant. You've pushed a picture on an innocent, naive, totally unstreet wise girl. I imagine that person would have been shaking in her shoes. I think the police knew how important her testimony would be and did a softly, softly act, whilst reminding her that it was possible that there may be a prosecution, which although out of their hands, they'd put a good word in for her. Clearly, the DPP must have known about the cheque book fraud. How else could the Director have "taken the decision 'NOT' to prosecute"?

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Is wiggy correct about there being reasonable doubt?
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2015, 06:23:13 PM »
But the very act of "advising her of the Directors decision 'NOT' to prosecute" must surely suggest that it HAD, at some point, been a possibility they'd made her aware of.

By law they must notify someone when a decision is made.  She knew at that point that she would not be prosecuted.  If she refused to testify she could face contempt of court charges only. This is not immunity.  Immunity is being given a contractual agreement where if you do what the government asks then in exchange they won't prosecute you and if you fail to comply with your contractual requirements then the deal is void and they are free to prosecute you.

They had no leverage so far as an immunity deal is concerned.  Her crimes were minor, she at most would face a police caution/low community order.  This is less severe than the punishment that could be meted out by contempt of court. So an immunity deal would be quite pointless. Immunity deals are where someone faces something rather significant so is reluctant to talk and incriminate themselves.  Immunity deals are sought BEFORE people will talk to police.  She told the police everything already. They had no need to offer her immunity to get her to tell police what she knew. They already knew what she knew, she signed sworn statements already.
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline adam

Re: Is wiggy correct about there being reasonable doubt?
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2015, 07:48:34 PM »

You seem not to have taken into account what the potential threat of losing her future career would have meant. You've pushed a picture on an innocent, naive, totally unstreet wise girl. I imagine that person would have been shaking in her shoes. I think the police knew how important her testimony would be and did a softly, softly act, whilst reminding her that it was possible that there may be a prosecution, which although out of their hands, they'd put a good word in for her. Clearly, the DPP must have known about the cheque book fraud. How else could the Director have "taken the decision 'NOT' to prosecute"?

Why would she lose her future career ? It was a first offence, joint minor cheque book fraud from over a year earlier. She would get a police caution or community charge. She paid back the money straight away, so the bank may decide not to prosecute anyway.

Well she was innocent, and naive in the situation she found herself in.

Agree the police realised how important her testimony was. I doubt they needed to persuade her to testify. She approached the police after telling five people. Then completed a WS. The police worked with her, Stan Jones being the main person. Whether he took a soft approach is up to him.

There were other things that would effect future employment. As Scipio said if she refused to testify she would be in contempt of court. She would be more worried about that, or perjury if exposed as lying in court. Or Bamber getting off and spending the next 30 years attacking her in public. Mind you he does that anyway.

« Last Edit: December 12, 2015, 08:06:44 PM by adam »

Offline APRIL

Re: Is wiggy correct about there being reasonable doubt?
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2015, 08:02:46 PM »
Why would she lose her future career ? It was a first offence, joint minor cheque book fraud from over a year earlier. She would get a police caution or community charge. She paid back the money straight away, so the bank may decide not to prosecute anyway.

Well she was innocent, and naive in the situation she found herself in.

Agree the police realised how important her testimony was. I doubt they needed to persuade her to testify. She approached the police after telling five people. Then completed a WS. The police worked with her, Stan Jones being the main person. Whether he took a soft approach is up to him.

There were other things that would effect future employment. As Scipio said if she refused to testify she would be in contempt of court. She would be more worried about that, or perjury if exposed as lying in court. Or Bamber getting off and spending the 30 years attacking her in public. Mind you he does that anyway.

Adam, why do you think certain professions require that police checks are done before any hiring is done? It probably was in her favour that she'd repaid the money, but whether or not she was prosecuted was out of her hands. It was IN the hands of the DPP. It had NOTHING to do with the bank whether or not she was prosecuted.

 You may be totally convinced that they'd have let her off with a smacked wrist but perhaps if it had been you who had committed the crime at such a young, naive and innocent age, AND find yourself being questioned by the police regarding one of the biggest crimes in recent British history, you wouldn't feel quite as confident.

Offline rotti

Re: Is wiggy correct about there being reasonable doubt?
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2015, 11:29:03 PM »
even without her testimony there is enough evidence that sheila could not have committed the crime.master scipio usmc  is right but sometimes is very rude when answering peoples posts 8()(((@#.but he is the master
« Last Edit: December 15, 2015, 11:31:17 PM by sherlock »

Offline puglove

Re: Is wiggy correct about there being reasonable doubt?
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2015, 11:47:20 PM »
even without her testimony there is enough evidence that sheila could not have committed the crime.master scipio usmc  is right but sometimes is very rude when answering peoples posts 8()(((@#.but he is the master

Ha!! Yes, scipio is indeed the master and, thanks to him, I now sometimes find myself telling people that "I am handing them their ass."

It feels great!     ?>)()<
Jeremy Bamber kicked Mike Tesko in the fanny.

Offline rotti

Re: Is wiggy correct about there being reasonable doubt?
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2015, 11:52:12 PM »
Ha!! Yes, scipio is indeed the master and, thanks to him, I now sometimes find myself telling people that "I am handing them their ass."

It feels great!     ?>)()<
@)(++(*i think he is one of only a few on here that has  seen every statement and photo;relating to the case.hence the master. i can put up with his rudeness as long as he doesn't mind some in return;and he doesn't &%+((£
« Last Edit: December 16, 2015, 12:00:25 AM by sherlock »

Offline puglove

Re: Is wiggy correct about there being reasonable doubt?
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2015, 12:07:53 AM »
@)(++(*i think he is one of only a few on here that has  seen every statement and photo;relating to the case.hence the master. i can put up with his rudeness as long as he doesn't mind some in return;and he doesn't &%+((£

No, he doesn't give a monkey's (or, as he would say, a rat's ass.) He's rude, but funny, and has actually taken the trouble (unlike some I could mention) to do his homework. You can't best him!
« Last Edit: December 16, 2015, 12:10:54 AM by puglove »
Jeremy Bamber kicked Mike Tesko in the fanny.

Offline rotti

Re: Is wiggy correct about there being reasonable doubt?
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2015, 12:27:44 AM »
No, he doesn't give a monkey's (or, as he would say, a rat's ass.) He's rude, but funny, and has actually taken the trouble (unlike some I could mention) to do his homework. You can't best him!
totally agree.lets hope we can agree on a few other things pugi 8((()*/

Offline puglove

Re: Is wiggy correct about there being reasonable doubt?
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2015, 12:44:45 AM »
totally agree.lets hope we can agree on a few other things pugi 8((()*/

Hopefully! But not the Diana thing! Please spell her name correctly. She was a nightmare, but only because she was used as a broodmare by that horrible, weird family. She wasn't murdered, she was just, again not very bright, and in the wrong place at the wrong time. Massively sad, and it shouldn't have happened.
Jeremy Bamber kicked Mike Tesko in the fanny.

Offline rotti

Re: Is wiggy correct about there being reasonable doubt?
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2015, 12:52:07 AM »
Hopefully! But not the Diana thing! Please spell her name correctly. She was a nightmare, but only because she was used as a broodmare by that horrible, weird family. She wasn't murdered, she was just, again not very bright, and in the wrong place at the wrong time. Massively sad, and it shouldn't have happened.
pugi'lets agree to disagree on this one &%+((£