Author Topic: Re: Is wiggy correct about there being reasonable doubt?  (Read 5147 times)

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Offline puglove

Re: Is wiggy correct about there being reasonable doubt?
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2015, 12:59:07 AM »
pugi'lets agree to disagree on this one &%+((£

We'll see!!
Jeremy Bamber kicked Mike Tesko in the fanny.

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Is wiggy correct about there being reasonable doubt?
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2015, 06:06:55 PM »
even without her testimony there is enough evidence that sheila could not have committed the crime.master scipio usmc  is right but sometimes is very rude when answering peoples posts 8()(((@#.but he is the master

That's half the case.  That Sheila can't have killed herself (and the others) simply proves someone else killed her and the others and framed her.

The other half is proving who killed them and tried to frame her. Jeremy's claim he received a phone call blaming Sheila was a big fat gift to the prosecution.  But Julie's testimony accomplished the same thing.  Either one alone would suffice but together they are even more powerful.  Jurors might be willing to disregard one thing but when you have multiple pieces of evidence proving the same thing they are more reluctant to ignore all of them.

Without both the case would have been someone tried to execute the entire family in their sleep and staged it to make it look like Sheila did it and that the only one with a motive to do such would be Jeremy and he had no alibi so it had to be him. Some would find that sufficient to convict but some would not so it would depend heavily on who made up the jury.

With both Julie's testimony and the phone call claim he would have to be extremely lucky and get a jury full of fools to acquit. Once in a while someone gets lucky and gets such a jury- look at Robert Dursk.  The jury bought that he killed someone in self defense then instead of calling police to say he killed the persons in self defense he dismembered the body and disposed of it.  Once in a while defendants get lucky and get a large group of morons. But the law of averages are against it. The law of averages are that out of a body of 12 who pass through jury selection no more than 2 will be utter morons, biased beyond belief or susceptible to bribery.  What is required to convict in majority cases- 10 of the 12...

Note the small number of cases where there is a hung jury because 3 or more disagree with their counterparts.


 

“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

david1819

  • Guest
Re: Is wiggy correct about there being reasonable doubt?
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2015, 06:25:36 PM »
Once in a while someone gets lucky and gets such a jury- look at Robert Dursk.  The jury bought that he killed someone in self defense then instead of calling police to say he killed the persons in self defense he dismembered the body and disposed of it.  Once in a while defendants get lucky and get a large group of morons. But the law of averages are against it. The law of averages are that out of a body of 12 who pass through jury selection no more than 2 will be utter morons, biased beyond belief or susceptible to bribery.  What is required to convict in majority cases- 10 of the 12...

Note the small number of cases where there is a hung jury because 3 or more disagree with their counterparts.

Don't forget to mention that once in a while defendants get unlucky and a unanimous jury find them guilty when they are infact innocent. Mind you its not always the Jury's fault, police corruption, ineffective defence counsel or prosecution misconduct will precipitate such outcome not always a foolish Jury.

Robert Durst and OJ Simpson are a classic example of reasonable doubt at a reasonable price.

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Is wiggy correct about there being reasonable doubt?
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2015, 07:16:23 PM »
Don't forget to mention that once in a while defendants get unlucky and a unanimous jury find them guilty when they are infact innocent. Mind you its not always the Jury's fault, police corruption, ineffective defence counsel or prosecution misconduct will precipitate such outcome not always a foolish Jury.

Robert Durst and OJ Simpson are a classic example of reasonable doubt at a reasonable price.

Neither is a good example of illustrating reasonable doubt at work. They are examples of juries that were horrible.

The Russ Faria case is an example of a jury being delusional the opposite way. He had multiple witnesses giving him an alibi, receipts proving he was far away and the body was cold when he found it. The prosecution failed to establish beyond a reasonable doubt that he did it under such circumstances.  One of the witnesses against him clearly was the real killer and the defense was not allowed to go after her.  If the defense had been allowed to do so they maybe have acquitted but should have anyway even absent such because objectively the state failed to prove its case.   They needed to establish the time of death and that he had opportunity but could not.  That alone should have been the end of things.

Because the judge improperly denied the right to go after the key prosecution witness he was granted a new trial and was acquitted. But that doesn't mean the jury had enough evidence to convict.  The jury failed to do their duty. Cases like this are rare though. Most convictions are based on sufficient evidence. Juries don't usually choose to ignore 4 witnesses giving an alibi and a body being cold when found. 

The prosecution in that case was so horrible it looks like they are not going to go after the real killer though it is obvious who the real killer is.

“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline rotti

Re: Is wiggy correct about there being reasonable doubt?
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2015, 07:32:23 PM »
Neither is a good example of illustrating reasonable doubt at work. They are examples of juries that were horrible.

The Russ Faria case is an example of a jury being delusional the opposite way. He had multiple witnesses giving him an alibi, receipts proving he was far away and the body was cold when he found it. The prosecution failed to establish beyond a reasonable doubt that he did it under such circumstances.  One of the witnesses against him clearly was the real killer and the defense was not allowed to go after her.  If the defense had been allowed to do so they maybe have acquitted but should have anyway even absent such because objectively the state failed to prove its case.   They needed to establish the time of death and that he had opportunity but could not.  That alone should have been the end of things.

Because the judge improperly denied the right to go after the key prosecution witness he was granted a new trial and was acquitted. But that doesn't mean the jury had enough evidence to convict.  The jury failed to do their duty. Cases like this are rare though. Most convictions are based on sufficient evidence. Juries don't usually choose to ignore 4 witnesses giving an alibi and a body being cold when found. 

The prosecution in that case was so horrible it looks like they are not going to go after the real killer though it is obvious who the real killer is.
wow fantastic .master.knowledge is power 8((()*/