My email to Kerry Daynes

[Nicholas]

Yes, I know he did. I was taking exception to this particular assertion: A person who commits burglary is deceitful, in other words a LIAR!

Wasn’t this debated across the two forums (red & blue) when Simon Halls ‘zenith burglary’ was found out, circa 2012/13?

This forum arguing Hall was a liar

The other forum suggesting the omission wasn’t relevant to the murder?

[The General]

Wasn’t this debated across the two forums (red & blue) when Simon Halls ‘zenith burglary’ was found out?

This forum arguing Hall was a liar

The other forum suggesting the omission wasn’t relevant to the murder?

I don't know.
The point being, as emotive it obviously is for you, a burglar is not automatically also a liar. Obviously dishonesty is a useful trait, but not a prerequisite.

[Nicholas]

I don't know.
The point being, as emotive it obviously is for you, a burglar is not automatically also a liar. Obviously dishonesty is a useful trait, but not a prerequisite.

Well according to the consensus of this forum back in 2012/13 it was?

[Nicholas]

Bamber is a liar, a pathological one at that.

He only admitted to his dishonest act because he’d been arrested by police after he’d murdered 5 family members.

As per one of my previous post,

”The fact Bamber robbed his own family business and admitted to it whilst under police caution gave him motive”for the 5 murders

In carrying out the burglary his culpability could be seen as, and not limited to

* Breach of a high degree of trust or responsibility
* Sophisticated nature of offence/significant planning
* Deliberately targeting victim on basis of vulnerability

The Harm caused in carrying out the dishonest act could have showed, and again not limited to

* High level of inconvenience caused to the victim or others
* Emotional distress
* Fear/loss of confidence caused by the crime
* Impact of theft on a business

 There were aggravating factors to consider also, like for example,

* Offender motivated by intention to cause harm or out of revenge
* Attempts to conceal/dispose of evidence

There’s a user guide here by the sentencing council on the offence of theft
https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offences/magistrates-court/item/theft-general/

[The General]

Well according to the consensus of this forum back in 2012/13 it was?

Not in my opinion it's not.

[The General]

Bamber is a liar, a pathological one at that.

He only admitted to his dishonest act because he’d been arrested by police after he’d murdered 5 family members.

As per one of my previous post, “The fact Bamber robbed his own family business and admitted to it whilst under police caution gave him motive” for the 5 murders

In carrying out the burglary his culpability could be seen as, and not limited to

* Breach of a high degree of trust or responsibility
* Sophisticated nature of offence/significant planning
* Deliberately targeting victim on basis of vulnerability

The Harm caused in carrying out the dishonest act could have showed, and again not limited to

* High level of inconvenience caused to the victim or others
* Emotional distress
* Fear/loss of confidence caused by the crime
* Impact of theft on a business

 There were aggravating factors to consider also, like for example,

* Offender motivated by intention to cause harm or out of revenge
* Attempts to conceal/dispose of evidence

There’s a user guide here by the sentencing council on the offence of theft
https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offences/magistrates-court/item/theft-general/

Yes, we know.
Are we still arguing the whole burglar point?

[Nicholas]

Not in my opinion it's not.

‘There is no universally accepted definition of lying to others’

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/lying-definition/

[Nicholas]

Yes, we know.
Are we still arguing the whole burglar point?

Looks that way

[The General]

Looks that way

OK, so what are you saying?

[Nicholas]

OK, so what are you saying?

What are you saying?

[The General]

What are you saying?

Well, I'm saying that the logic employed earlier - burglar - dishonest - liar is not an absolute.

You said: A person who commits burglary is deceitful, in other words a LIAR!

Sure, being a liar is a useful trait when fencing ill-gotten gains, but not all burglars are liars.
In this case, Jeremy Bamber, convicted mass murderer, probable psychopath, is an admitted burglar and an admitted liar, granted. But it's not a prerequisite.

[Caroline]

Well, I'm saying that the logic employed earlier - burglar - dishonest - liar is not an absolute.

You said: A person who commits burglary is deceitful, in other words a LIAR!

Sure, being a liar is a useful trait when fencing ill-gotten gains, but not all burglars are liars.
In this case, Jeremy Bamber, convicted mass murderer, probable psychopath, is an admitted burglar and an admitted liar, granted. But it's not a prerequisite.

Think we should just agree that Bamber is both and move on?

[The General]

Think we should just agree that Bamber is both and move on?

Let's do that.

[Caroline]

Let's do that.

 

[Nicholas]

Burglary is dishonest and the burglar deceitful? Only if you lie about it, surely, otherwise all crimes are dishonest aren't they? It doesn't automatically follow that a criminal is also a liar. Your logic is flawed.
Speeding is a crime.

Okay   

We’re debating Bamber, not someone who’s been done for speeding.

My words (or speech) weren’t ‘dishonest’ to me therefore my logic at the time wasn’t flawed.