Why is there so much support for Leonor Cipriano from McCann supporters?

[ferryman]

No it isn't ever justified. 

And it does not require much intelligence to work out why.

But probably more intelligence than some folk appear to have ....

[Alfred R Jones]

Being beaten to gain a confession create a situation which may not otherwise have happened. Being beaten as punishment does not change the status quo as there is nothing the person being beaten can do to stop it.

It is always wrong, but not the same.

Torture of a suspect whatever the actual reason renders subsequent events open to question, first and foremost because we don't know whether a confession was gained under duress, surely you can see that, can't you?

[slartibartfast]

Torture of a suspect whatever the actual reason renders subsequent events open to question, first and foremost because we don't know whether a confession was gained under duress, surely you can see that, can't you?

I can see that when we have a confession well before any beating, it would be perverse to discount it.

[ferryman]

Torture of a suspect whatever the actual reason renders subsequent events open to question, first and foremost because we don't know whether a confession was gained under duress, surely you can see that, can't you?

Right, but with one (I think!) vital addition: subsequent and previous (to the torture) events.

It is perfectly fair to infer that interrogators capable of inflicting torture are also capable of other forms of interview "technique" (for want of a better word) capable of extracting statements (from suspects) in conformance with what the interrogators want to hear, but not necessarily reflecting truth ....

[Carana]

There is difference between being beaten up in disgust and being beaten up to gain a confession. The court accepted that she had been beaten but not as far as I can work out why.

Quite aside from views on "vigilante justice", I have found nothing in the torture trial ruling that she had confessed to where the child's remains were (which was apparently the motive of the new questioning) prior to being beaten up, despite what the the pro-PJ media said.

All I have found is that a lawyer was indeed present at some point on 13 October when questioned by Cristóvão. The content of whatever tranpired during that "formal" interview is not in the ruling.

However, if she had confessed at that point, I can find no logical reason to have continued to detain her at the police station (bar two hours or less the next morning when taken to and collected from the prison again), for a day of "no formal questioning" when she was already in pre-trial detention at the prison.

If she had been beaten up after the lawyer left on 13 October, then the sheet submitted for officers' presence in the station for out-of-hours exceptional presence (dated 15 October, but appears to include late hours of the 14, extending to early 15 October) wouldn't appear to be valid justification for their presence or absence on the night of the "slippery stair" incident.


Corrected: She was apparently picked up at the prison at some point in the afternoon of 12 Oct, taken back to prison, then picked up again on 13 Oct. And thereafter, spent less than a couple of hours back at the prison until her medical clinic visit on 15 Oct.


Here:

Assim, no dia 12, a assistente foi recolhida, durante a tarde, pelo inspector da Polícia Judiciária Norberto Simão no Estabelecimento Prisional de Odemira (folhas 428), apenas tendo regressado á cadeia no dia 13, pelas 8.30 horas (folhas 426 e 429). Daí em diante e até ao dia 15 já acima analisámos os movimentos de Leonor Maria Domingos Cipriano. Por outro lado, não é minimamente verosímil que a assistente se tivesse auto-infligido as lesões em causa no próprio Estabelecimento Prisional de Odemira. Desde logo se refira que Leonor Maria Domingos Cipriano pouco tempo teria para o efeito, já que, desde a manhã do dia 12 de Outubro de 2004 e até à manhã do dia 15 do mesmo mês e ano passou apenas 3 horas e 50 minutos na cadeia. Por outro lado, no dia 13, o arguido Paulo António Pereira Cristóvão esteve a interrogar Leonor Maria Domingos Cipriano (tal como está documentado
Processo no 1503/04.3TAFAR 38
a folhas 1181 e seguintes). Não notou (ou pelo menos não anotou) qualquer lesão no corpo da interrogada. A Sr.a Dr.a Célia Carocinho Costa, advogada que, nessa qualidade, assistiu Leonor Maria Domingos Cipriano no interrogatório também não viu marcas de lesões no corpo da ora assistente. O mesmo se diga relativamente aos inspectores que foram buscar a assistente ao Estabelecimento Prisional nos dias 12, 14 e que a foram levar neste último dia. Ora, dada a localização e extensão das lesões (o que mais adiante se analisará), não era possível que estas pessoas as não tivessem visto caso já existissem....

P. 39

[Alfred R Jones]

I can see that when we have a confession well before any beating, it would be perverse to discount it.

Do we?  And that is verified by what facts exactly?

[John]

As you say that all of this will be removed, there's not much point in answering.

if I may go so far as your first point: a single witness stating the he/she saw the child walking towards home is not evidence that she actually did arrive home.

If that were to be the case, every abducted child walking home from school could be assumed to have also arrived home.

In a 20-hour murder trial, with 45 witnesses and a shock-horror video to watch and digest, there would seem to be little time to examine the so-called evidence in any detail.

On its own very true but the fact that all her shoes were accounted for and a story begins to emerge.  Try looking at the bigger picture Carana.

A child seen going home, her shoes are all accounted for, her mother and uncle both delay in reporting her missing even though the police were at a fair in the village and very easy to contact, several traces of human blood found on the walls and on the floor unaccounted for yet attempts had been made to remove them, a mother who admits to having hit her childs head against a wall and a brother who says they both did it and that he scattered the remains, a boyfriend who testifies his hacksaw is missing and witnesses who saw both suspects carrying a heavy bag way from the house shortly after the disappearance?

Don't you think this just a tad suspicious or do coincidences usually occur in murder cases?

[Carana]

Right, but with one (I think!) vital addition: subsequent and previous (to the torture) events.

It is perfectly fair to infer that interrogators capable of inflicting torture are also capable of other forms of interview "technique" (for want of a better word) capable of extracting statements (from suspects) in conformance with what the interrogators want to hear, but not necessarily reflecting truth ....

More modern protocols and techniques appear to involve more subtle questioning in order to get the suspects entangled in the webs of their own fabrication. Interviews are also recorded, in theory, to avoid accusations of mistreatment.

[Mr Gray]

On its own very true but the fact that all her shoes were accounted for and a story begins to emerge.  Try looking at the bigger picture Carana.

so john...she came home and discovered L&J having incestuous sex...she was attacked beaten and killed...at what point do you think leonor took off Joannas shoes and placed them where they could be found

[Carana]

On its own very true but the fact that all her shoes were accounted for and a story begins to emerge.  Try looking at the bigger picture Carana.

Careful you don't get told off by Admin, John. ;)

I have. The sole witness in question didn't live in the house.... how could she reliably have stated what shoes Joana had? Why weren't Leandro, the other chap or even the older other child asked?

ETA: Neither the bar-lady nor the fag-on-balcony witness noticed what shoes she was wearing, either.

[John]

so john...she came home and discovered L&J having incestuous sex...she was attacked beaten and killed...at what point do you think leonor took off Joannas shoes and placed them where they could be found

That claim is an unproven fact according to the appeal court and they had all the informative n at their disposal.

It isn't very hard to work out that Joana returned from the shop and had removed her shoes before the assault.

[John]

Careful you don't get told off by Admin, John. ;)

I have. The sole witness in question didn't live in the house.... how could she reliably have stated what shoes Joana had? Why weren't Leandro, the other chap or even the older other child asked?

ETA: Neither the bar-lady nor the fag-on-balcony witness noticed what shoes she was wearing, either.

Both the aunt and Leandro identified her shoes.

The following is a snippet from an interview with the man who had all the facts.  I suggest anyone who wants to learn more about the case and what led the police to suspect Leonor and João have a look at the interview.


Gonçalo Amaral:.  "You can tell that the house had been cleaned, that area where the blood was found had been cleaned. It had been cleaned with petroleum purchased by Leonor on the day she left the Portimão police station. There was an attempt, that you might say worked well, to inhibit any laboratory results. As many vestiges as possible were obtained, given the circumstances, and the conclusion is that it was human blood. According to the court, and I agree, something serious happened in that house, on that day. And the conclusion was that it was a homicide."

Another piece of evidence found at Joana's house by the PJ were the red shoes that Joana was supposed to be wearing the day she disappeared. The PJ believe that the mother and uncle forgot to hide the shoes, just as they did the purchases from the store. The posters put up by the family said that she was wearing red shoes.


http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2008/10/cipriano-case-without-trace-of-joana.html

[stephen25000]

No it isn't ever justified. 

And it does not require much intelligence to work out why.

Never justified, yet you know it goes on, within the parameters of 'rendition' and in many countries around the world.


I wonder whether you would say the same if a close friend of yours or a relative, could have been saved, or hundreds of peoples lives, say by rendition of a terrorist who under examination/torture revealed the details of a major terrorist operation before it was carried out.

[Carana]

On its own very true but the fact that all her shoes were accounted for and a story begins to emerge.  Try looking at the bigger picture Carana.

A child seen going home, her shoes are all accounted for, her mother and uncle both delay in reporting her missing even though the police were at a fair in the village and very easy to contact, several traces of human blood found on the walls and on the floor unaccounted for yet attempts had been made to remove them, a mother who admits to having hit her childs head against a wall and a brother who says they both did it and that he scattered the remains, a boyfriend who testifies his hacksaw is missing and witnesses who saw both suspects carrying a heavy bag way from the house shortly after the disappearance?

Don't you think this just a tad suspicious or do coincidences usually occur in murder cases?

You've added more...

- A plausible reason is that they were looking for her in the village on the assumption that she could be with relatives or friends of the family due to the Cockles Festival and were concerned, but not in a state of panic until the next day.

- There is no forensic evidence in that living-room that would be incompatible with a knicked finger, a scraped knee, or a sweaty handprint (or possibly all three at some point in an undetermined past).

There was also animal blood... did they sacrifice a cow on the kitchen floor as well that night?

The PJ didn't even wave a torch around until 10 days later in a home in which the five remaining peole continued to live, as well as Leandro's mother who scrubbed the OUTSIDE of the house of whatever bugs had appeared, plus the presence of other family members and friends who'd visited during that time.

- I can't take "confessions", if there were any, under conditions of potential duress as being reliable.

- Leonor's partner did indeed notice that his saw was missing... but didn't know when it disappeared.

[stephen25000]

But probably more intelligence than some folk appear to have ....

Now would you say that but for your need to link the Mccann case to the Cipriano one ?