Author Topic: Why is there so much support for Leonor Cipriano from McCann supporters?  (Read 334476 times)

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Offline Mr Gray

Re: Why is there so much support for Leonor Cipriano from McCann supporters?
« Reply #480 on: January 09, 2016, 04:24:36 PM »
You are wasting your time.

Try to understand that, if of course you can.

i am wasting my time trying to get any sense out of you...very true

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Why is there so much support for Leonor Cipriano from McCann supporters?
« Reply #481 on: January 09, 2016, 04:32:25 PM »
i am wasting my time trying to get any sense out of you...very true

Oh dear, here comes the insults again.

Part of the mccann supporter mantra, to denigrate other posters.

I'm afraid dave, if you think you can drown out other posters, you are sorely mistaken.

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Why is there so much support for Leonor Cipriano from McCann supporters?
« Reply #482 on: January 09, 2016, 04:35:46 PM »
my point stands and you have not answered it...there would only be such  a review if it had been decided there MAY have been a miscarriage....how would you decide whether this review was necessary

The same way any appeal is decided:

"Grounds for a criminal appeal must be based in law and not facts"
"Appealing a judgment on legal grounds means that the error in the judgment resulted from a problem with the law related to the case".




"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Why is there so much support for Leonor Cipriano from McCann supporters?
« Reply #483 on: January 09, 2016, 04:45:09 PM »
The same way any appeal is decided:

"Grounds for a criminal appeal must be based in law and not facts "
"Appealing a judgment on legal grounds means that the error in the judgment resulted from a problem with the law related to the case".


that looks to be total rubbish....grounds for an appeal can be new evidence...that's facts

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Why is there so much support for Leonor Cipriano from McCann supporters?
« Reply #484 on: January 09, 2016, 04:47:32 PM »
that looks to be total rubbish....grounds for an appeal can be new evidence...that's facts

Well, that doesn't look likely in the Cipriano case, with the mother being a convicted liar and murderer.

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Why is there so much support for Leonor Cipriano from McCann supporters?
« Reply #485 on: January 09, 2016, 04:48:39 PM »
You are content with the verdict in the Cipriano case, yes?  A potential miscarriage of justice, no?
1 Yes
2 Is it? a miscarriage of justice is based on law not fact.
So which bit of Portuguese law do you believe is material and caused an error in the verdict ?
If you believe there has been a miscarriage of justice you must know why you believe it ?
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Why is there so much support for Leonor Cipriano from McCann supporters?
« Reply #486 on: January 09, 2016, 04:49:59 PM »
Well, that doesn't look likely in the Cipriano case, with the mother being a convicted liar and murderer.

as Barry George was...remember...as were the birmingham six..remember...and many more...who were convicted murderers

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Why is there so much support for Leonor Cipriano from McCann supporters?
« Reply #487 on: January 09, 2016, 04:51:41 PM »
that looks to be total rubbish....grounds for an appeal can be new evidence...that's facts

It may look to be total rubbish to you but that is hardly a definitive statement is it?
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Why is there so much support for Leonor Cipriano from McCann supporters?
« Reply #488 on: January 09, 2016, 04:53:42 PM »
It may look to be total rubbish to you but that is hardly a definitive statement is it?

I don't know where your quote is from but new evidence is grounds for appeal and anything that suggests it isn't is rubbish...is that definitive enough for you

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Why is there so much support for Leonor Cipriano from McCann supporters?
« Reply #489 on: January 09, 2016, 04:54:08 PM »
as Barry George was...remember...as were the birmingham six..remember...and many more...who were convicted murderers

That sums it up to a tee.

If Amaral wasn't involved in the Cipriano case, you would not give a monkeys.

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Why is there so much support for Leonor Cipriano from McCann supporters?
« Reply #490 on: January 09, 2016, 05:41:35 PM »
1 Yes
2 Is it? a miscarriage of justice is based on law not fact.
So which bit of Portuguese law do you believe is material and caused an error in the verdict ?
If you believe there has been a miscarriage of justice you must know why you believe it ?
From everything I have read about this case there seems plenty of grounds for suspecting a miscarriage of justice, starting with, but not limited to, the proven use of torture on one of the defendants.  You either don't have an opinion on whether or not there may have been a miscarriage of justice or simply don't care, that's your prerogative but don't lecture me for holding an opinion about it.

Offline Carana

Re: Why is there so much support for Leonor Cipriano from McCann supporters?
« Reply #491 on: January 09, 2016, 07:07:35 PM »
I suppose if you have evidence of a miscarriage of justice, you can always launch an appeal - otherwise you must accept the verdict as it stands.

There were easily enough glaringly evident holes to be picked had the initial defence been adequate. When a court accepts without question that wearing a dark top and red trousers in a TV appeal is a sign of guilt; that the odd speck of unidentifable, undateable blood in a household that hadn't been sealed off (nor was it indeed by the time of the reconstruction around a month later as Leandro had to be called back to allow the PJ entry again) was somehow proof of her massacre... what can one say?  I despair.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2016, 07:43:39 PM by Carana »

Offline Carana

Re: Why is there so much support for Leonor Cipriano from McCann supporters?
« Reply #492 on: January 09, 2016, 08:08:43 PM »
The same way any appeal is decided:

"Grounds for a criminal appeal must be based in law and not facts"
"Appealing a judgment on legal grounds means that the error in the judgment resulted from a problem with the law related to the case".


A Supreme Ccourt review in a trial involving a jury (deemed to have already given added validity to the ascertainment of facts, *cough* ) does seem to be only on points of law.

ETA: one sentence in that is that it could have included what was assumed as "rules of common experience" (unless I've misunderstood it).

I'm not sure how that works in practice as it is facts that can be elastically ruled to be of common experience (therefore judgement on facts). And there were loads of these in this case...



7 - Ao contrário do que sucede com o acórdão final do tribunal colectivo, de que se pode recorrer quanto à matéria de facto para o tribunal da relação com apelo às provas documentadas em suporte áudio ou vídeo, quando intervém o tribunal de Júri o recurso dirige-se directamente ao STJ e visa exclusivamente o reexame da matéria de direito, sem prejuízo de se invocar algum dos vícios a que aludem os n.ºs 2 e 3 do art.º 410.º, "desde que o vício (no caso do n.º 2) resulte do texto da decisão recorrida, por si só ou conjugada com as regras da experiência comum".
8 - Entendeu o legislador que a intervenção do Júri dá maiores garantias de fidedignidade na fixação da matéria de facto, pelo que restringiu o direito ao recurso nessa parte.


Amongst Luz's many claims was the assertion that jury trials do not exist in PT. This isn't accurate. They are an option for trials involving a potential sentence of 8 years or more, but a party has to request it.

The defence did not want a jury trial. I find that to be understandable in view of the potential influence of the pre-trial (clearly PJ-biased) coverage.

If that is correct, then it must have been the prosecution that requested one.... one might wonder why.

« Last Edit: January 09, 2016, 08:14:01 PM by Carana »

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Why is there so much support for Leonor Cipriano from McCann supporters?
« Reply #493 on: January 09, 2016, 08:50:07 PM »
I don't know where your quote is from but new evidence is grounds for appeal and anything that suggests it isn't is rubbish...is that definitive enough for you

Yes but it is incorrect.

"new evidence - not grounds enough for an appeal"
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Why is there so much support for Leonor Cipriano from McCann supporters?
« Reply #494 on: January 09, 2016, 10:01:53 PM »
Yes but it is incorrect.

"new evidence - not grounds enough for an appeal"

Almost every appeal I have heard in the Uk is based on new evidence