Why is there so much support for Leonor Cipriano from McCann supporters?

[Alice Purjorick]

My understanding is that

- If she turned up alive, then they could hardly stay in prison for her murder.

- If her remains were ever found, I assume that the investigation would have to be reopened.

However, it's possible (IMO) that any new evidence, per se, may not be sufficient to exonerate them. If it were to be conclusively proven that she had not been chopped up, then there's a problem with the "reconstruction"...

Presumably the Portuguese worked on a similar principle to the British as I posted on 7/01/2016.
"Det Ch Insp Howard Groves, who led the Met investigation, said he had "no nagging doubts" that Mr Banfield was dead, but admitted missing body murders were extremely difficult to prove.
He said: "You have to satisfy the jury that someone is dead and therefore not going to walk into a police station and say, 'I believe my wife and daughter have been convicted of my murder, but here I am alive and well'."

[Carana]

My introduction to the Cipriano case was as a result of a septic (sic) on a Yahoo comment thread who attacked me with my 'support for child murderers' ... absolute nonsense since I had never heard of Joana ...

The description I was given was of a blood saturated scene with drag marks across the floor with the child's little bloody hand prints on the door jamb with one of her nails embedded in it such was her struggle to survive.

I thought "Wow!".

When I looked for information on the case, amongst the little I was able to locate, I discovered that the septic advice I had been given was so far from the truth that it ranks as being delusional if believed.

I decided at that point that there were people out there so stupid they were mouthing off on propaganda about which they knew nothing and cared even less whether it was accurate or not.

Which merely adds yet another layer to the parallels between the Cipriano and McCann cases which shrink the seven miles between them to a hairsbreadth.

The entire trial only lasted for 3 days (with 45 witness testimonies to hear), plus the "ace" of this "reconstruction" presented via video. I'm not sure when the delberations of the jury /judges took place (whether this was included in this time or not).

There is no substantial material evidence to support what was alleged to have happened in the living area. As there was no (or little) counter evidence presented, what was presented was taken as undisputed fact.

As, conveniently, there was no recorded CCTV PJ evidence recording all their time in custody, there is no way of proving either way what actually took place during "interviews".

[Carana]

Presumably the Portuguese worked on a similar principle to the British as I posted on 7/01/2016.
"Det Ch Insp Howard Groves, who led the Met investigation, said he had "no nagging doubts" that Mr Banfield was dead, but admitted missing body murders were extremely difficult to prove.
He said: "You have to satisfy the jury that someone is dead and therefore not going to walk into a police station and say, 'I believe my wife and daughter have been convicted of my murder, but here I am alive and well'."

The PT system is inquisitorial, not adversarial.

Perhaps someone with a greater understanding of how this works in practice in a 3-day murder trial could explain...

[Carana]

Presumably the Portuguese worked on a similar principle to the British as I posted on 7/01/2016.
"Det Ch Insp Howard Groves, who led the Met investigation, said he had "no nagging doubts" that Mr Banfield was dead, but admitted missing body murders were extremely difficult to prove.
He said: "You have to satisfy the jury that someone is dead and therefore not going to walk into a police station and say, 'I believe my wife and daughter have been convicted of my murder, but here I am alive and well'."

Despite the laudable legal principles, that doesn't appear to be how it worked in practice.

In this system, counter evidence had to be provided to balance the assertions made... for whatever reason, little was.

There was no countering expert testimony to testify that a speck of unidentifable blood on the handle of a broomstick or on the back of a freezer drawer did not a massacre make.

[stephen25000]

Despite the laudable legal principles, that doesn't appear to be how it worked in practice.

In this system, counter evidence had to be provided to balance the assertions made... for whatever reason, little was.

There was no countering expert testimony to testify that a speck of unidentifable blood on the handle of a broomstick or on the back of a freezer drawer did not a massacre make.

Was the brother 'tortured' ?

Didn't he make a confession ?

[Alice Purjorick]

The PT system is inquisitorial, not adversarial.

Perhaps someone with a greater understanding of how this works in practice in a 3-day murder trial could explain...

Nonetheless the same principle will apply. The judges and jury ,if any, will need to be satisfied the person will not turn up in the fullness of time. The same principle will apply to determining that whether in an adversarial system or inquisitorial system. The details of how that is established in the UK has already been posted.
Without the full transcripts we are both shooting blind. My view being I am OK with it until someone proves there has been a miscarriage of justice, ie the court did not follow correct procedure. My default position would be the court had it right because I have no basis for an informed opinion on what the Portuguese court procedure is.
Your last sentence I agree with.

[Carana]

Nonetheless the same principle will apply. The judges and jury ,if any, will need to be satisfied the person will not turn up in the fullness of time. The same principle will apply to determining that whether in an adversarial system or inquisitorial system. The details of how that is established in the UK has already been posted.
Without the full transcripts we are both shooting blind. My view being I am OK with it until someone proves there has been a miscarriage of justice, ie the court did not follow correct procedure. My default position would be the court had it right because I have no basis for an informed opinion on what the Portuguese court procedure is.
Your last sentence I agree with.

I find your default view to be reasoned, even though I find that the "evidence" wouldn't hold water in other jurisdictions.

The lack of probative evidence is something that I find quite jaw-dropping, although you may disagree.

My real interest isn't so much about the legal issues as to what really did happen to this little girl.

ETA: And when I compared the alleged scenario to the evidence... I just can''t find anything that would make me reason that what was presented in court was likely, let alone beyond any reasonable doubt.

[mercury]

Again, I can't answer for others.

Despite the torture aspect, I had assumed that they may well have been guilty until I started wading through the SC ruling to see what the evidence actually was. And that's when I realised just how flimsy the entire case was.

One could ask the question the other way around: why do so many of the sceptic community insist that they are necessarily guilty without thoroughly examining what the evidence actually was?


     

I dont thnk anyone has stated they are definitely  guilty but

because from the off their behaviour and statements are flimsy vis a vis innocence...constantly changed...innocent people do not change their statements from one extreme to the other

examining the evidence was the judges and the jury's job...they found a verdict....you are at liberty to think they were all brainwashed or corrupt or incompetent or stupid

Dont forgetet years later the mother was found guilty of perjury and further sentenced....shes not exactly mother bleedin theresa is she? She lied about her torture. Well, she can write a book about the truth when shes released and we can all read it.

[Brietta]

I dont thnk anyone has stated they are definitely  guilty but

because from the off their behaviour and statements are flimsy vis a vis innocence...constantly changed...innocent people do not change their statements from one extreme to the other

examining the evidence was the judges and the jury's job...they found a verdict....you are at liberty to think they were all brainwashed or corrupt or incompetent or stupid

Dont forgetet years later the mother was found guilty of perjury and further sentenced....shes not exactly mother bleedin theresa is she? She lied about her torture. Well, she can write a book about the truth when shes released and we can all read it.

Her torture was proved.

It was Goncalo Amaral who was found guilty of perjury and convicted of the crime of covering the torture up.

Her sentence was increased because she was unable to identify the torturers.

She was unable to identify her torturers because the they had placed a bag over her head and she could not see the individuals who were beating her.

[mercury]

Now thats rather a silly thng to say, that she was sentenced to more time because she couldnt see through her bag

She was sentenced for lying about what happened when she was beaten! Ie she changed her account more than once...pattern set when she lied about events in general


is there any evidence the PJ beat her? If so pls provide so i can read so i can put to bed the anecdotal testimonies That her inmates beat her and the pj took the fall for the Prison governor who was culpable?

[misty]

Now thats rather a silly thng to say, that she was sentenced to more time because she couldnt see through her bag

She was sentenced for lying about what happened when she was beaten! Ie she changed her account more than once...pattern set when she lied about events in general


is there any evidence the PJ beat her? If so pls provide so i can read so i can put to bed the anecdotal testimonies That her inmates beat her and the pj took the fall for the Prison governor who was culpable?

If Leonor didn't exhibit any sign of injury whilst in custody, why did the PJ file a report saying she had thrown herself down the stairs in the presence of officers?

[Brietta]

Now thats rather a silly thng to say, that she was sentenced to more time because she couldnt see through her bag

She was sentenced for lying about what happened when she was beaten! Ie she changed her account more than once...pattern set when she lied about events in general


is there any evidence the PJ beat her? If so pls provide so i can read so i can put to bed the anecdotal testimonies That her inmates beat her

Lies, beatings, secret trials: the dark side of police handling Madeleine case
By DAVID ROSE
Last updated at 18:57 16 September 2007

**Snip
But Amaral's official silence is not the only difference between him and his counterparts in Britain.

In the UK, it is unlikely he would be leading the McCann inquiry at all.

Madeleine's parents Kate and Gerry may never be charged with anything, despite their present status as arguidos, or official suspects, and by the end of last week, apparently well-placed sources were admitting that any case against them is circumstantial and weak

Amaral, however, is in a similar position. He, too, is an arguido, facing possible trial on a serious criminal charge arising from a murder case brought to court in 2004, the last occasion a little girl vanished in the Algarve.

The Mail on Sunday can today reveal new details of this case, the subject of a draconian judicial order that has stopped most sources who know about the case from talking to the Portuguese Press.

According to the order, documents about the case have been restricted to a handful of officials, while the next stage of the process – a hearing at which Amaral and four fellow officers may be asked formal questions – will be conducted in secret.

It is believed that this is set for next month.

Three of Amaral's senior PJ colleagues have been made suspects for the torture of the missing girl's mother, Leonor Cipriano, who has been convicted of killing her daughter Joana, aged eight, and jailed for 16 years.

As for Amaral, the claim against him is "omisado de denuncia" – that he tried to hide the evidence of the alleged torture or, in other words, attempted a cover-up. He is said to deny it strenuously.

In internet blogs and newspaper columns, Amaral's supporters have claimed that the Cipriano case is built on lies – a vicious smear against a decent detective trying to do his job.

It has, they say, "no connection" to the Madeleine McCann inquiry.

Experienced lawyers in Portimao, the town 12 miles from Praia da Luz where Amaral is PJ chief, disagree.

The case against the detectives began as a complaint lodged by Cipriano's lawyer, they pointed out, but has now been adopted by the public prosecutor.

"In order to bring formal charges, the public prosecutor has to believe there is a strong case," said Oliveira Trindad, who has practised law in the area for more than ten years.

"That means that after assessing all the evidence, he thinks that if the case goes to trial, a conviction is more likely than not."

That decision is likely to be made well before the McCann case is closed.

There are, to be sure, many differences between Leonor Cipriano and Kate McCann.

But there are also similarities, starting with the fact that although the bodies of their daughters have not been found, Amaral and his PJ colleagues have long been convinced that both girls are dead.

No one would suggest that in the course of the marathon interrogations that preceded their departure from Portugal last weekend, Kate or Gerry McCann were the victims of physical violence.

But at times it seemed they were also being subjected to torment, albeit of a different, psychological kind.

It, too, say Portimao's criminal defence lawyers, may have been inspired by PJ officers desperate to achieve the end they sought with Cipriano – a confession.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-482007/Lies-beatings-secret-trials-dark-police-handling-Madeleine-case.html#ixzz3wywYSgzE


Goncalo Amaral was found guilty as charged ... a decision later upheld on appeal.

In the interim no trace of Joana Cipriano's body has ever been found and no-one looked for a living child once Goncalo Amaral had decided she was dead.

I recommend you read Carana's posts to inform yourself of the Cipriano case, she has carried out a good amount of research and uncovered a lot of information on a subject on which there doesn't seem to be a lot of accurate information.

[Brietta]

Now thats rather a silly thng to say, that she was sentenced to more time because she couldnt see through her bag

She was sentenced for lying about what happened when she was beaten! Ie she changed her account more than once...pattern set when she lied about events in general


is there any evidence the PJ beat her? If so pls provide so i can read so i can put to bed the anecdotal testimonies That her inmates beat her and the pj took the fall for the Prison governor who was culpable?

Portugal Human Rights

Torture and other ill-treatment

On 22 May the Criminal Court of Faro issued its sentence in the case of the torture of Leonor Cipriano. The court recognized that she had been tortured in police custody in 2004, but acquitted all three police officers, claiming that it was impossible to identify exactly who had been responsible. A fourth officer was convicted of giving false testimony and another was convicted of falsifying documents. Leonor Cipriano's appeal was pending at the end of the year.
http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/countries/europe/portugal

[mercury]

Lies, beatings, secret trials: the dark side of police handling Madeleine case
By DAVID ROSE
Last updated at 18:57 16 September 2007

**Snip
But Amaral's official silence is not the only difference between him and his counterparts in Britain.

In the UK, it is unlikely he would be leading the McCann inquiry at all.

Madeleine's parents Kate and Gerry may never be charged with anything, despite their present status as arguidos, or official suspects, and by the end of last week, apparently well-placed sources were admitting that any case against them is circumstantial and weak

Amaral, however, is in a similar position. He, too, is an arguido, facing possible trial on a serious criminal charge arising from a murder case brought to court in 2004, the last occasion a little girl vanished in the Algarve.

The Mail on Sunday can today reveal new details of this case, the subject of a draconian judicial order that has stopped most sources who know about the case from talking to the Portuguese Press.

According to the order, documents about the case have been restricted to a handful of officials, while the next stage of the process – a hearing at which Amaral and four fellow officers may be asked formal questions – will be conducted in secret.

It is believed that this is set for next month.

Three of Amaral's senior PJ colleagues have been made suspects for the torture of the missing girl's mother, Leonor Cipriano, who has been convicted of killing her daughter Joana, aged eight, and jailed for 16 years.

As for Amaral, the claim against him is "omisado de denuncia" – that he tried to hide the evidence of the alleged torture or, in other words, attempted a cover-up. He is said to deny it strenuously.

In internet blogs and newspaper columns, Amaral's supporters have claimed that the Cipriano case is built on lies – a vicious smear against a decent detective trying to do his job.

It has, they say, "no connection" to the Madeleine McCann inquiry.

Experienced lawyers in Portimao, the town 12 miles from Praia da Luz where Amaral is PJ chief, disagree.

The case against the detectives began as a complaint lodged by Cipriano's lawyer, they pointed out, but has now been adopted by the public prosecutor.

"In order to bring formal charges, the public prosecutor has to believe there is a strong case," said Oliveira Trindad, who has practised law in the area for more than ten years.

"That means that after assessing all the evidence, he thinks that if the case goes to trial, a conviction is more likely than not."

That decision is likely to be made well before the McCann case is closed.

There are, to be sure, many differences between Leonor Cipriano and Kate McCann.

But there are also similarities, starting with the fact that although the bodies of their daughters have not been found, Amaral and his PJ colleagues have long been convinced that both girls are dead.

No one would suggest that in the course of the marathon interrogations that preceded their departure from Portugal last weekend, Kate or Gerry McCann were the victims of physical violence.

But at times it seemed they were also being subjected to torment, albeit of a different, psychological kind.

It, too, say Portimao's criminal defence lawyers, may have been inspired by PJ officers desperate to achieve the end they sought with Cipriano – a confession.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-482007/Lies-beatings-secret-trials-dark-police-handling-Madeleine-case.html#ixzz3wywYSgzE


Goncalo Amaral was found guilty as charged ... a decision later upheld on appeal.

In the interim no trace of Joana Cipriano's body has ever been found and no-one looked for a living child once Goncalo Amaral had decided she was dead.

I recommend you read Carana's posts to inform yourself of the Cipriano case, she has carried out a good amount of research and uncovered a lot of information on a subject on which there doesn't seem to be a lot of accurate information.

You didnt answer my post just copied and pasted another borng artcle..or two...par for the course...its best if you speak for yourself

[Brietta]

You didnt answer my post just copied and pasted another borng artcle..or two...par for the course...its best if you speak for yourself

You asked for cites.

I have provided them.

Please do not complain when you get what you have asked for, it is terribly bad mannered.