Why is there so much support for Leonor Cipriano from McCann supporters?

[Jean-Pierre]

Concerned yes, surprised no.

And yet you appear to be arguing that her conviction is perfectly sound. 

And citing the fact that she and her brother both confessed in similar fact. 

The very fact that torture was proven in court (even in the actual perpetrators could not be identified) would make me very cautious of being too certain of anything relating to this case.

[stephen25000]

And yet you appear to be arguing that her conviction is perfectly sound. 

And citing the fact that she and her brother both confessed in similar fact. 

The very fact that torture was proven in court (even in the actual perpetrators could not be identified) would make me very cautious of being too certain of anything relating to this case.

Are you presuming she is not guilty ?

[ferryman]

That is exactly what happens when a suspect pleads guilty.


To answer that question one has to understand the timeline in the Cipriano case.

1. Both Leonor and João admitted involvement when represented by their first lawyer.  She effectively to accidental killing of her daughter and he to assisting in the removal and concealment of a cadaver.   On this basis they both appeared before an examining magistrate, she was remanded in custody, he was released on bail in order to assist police find Joana's body.

2. João failed to find the body despite taking police on several goose chases. Anyone would think he was playing for time but that is another story.

3. Given the admissions by both Leonor and João, police were not looking for anyone else, a full investigation was deemed unnecessary.

4. Enter our lawyer friend Marcos Aragão Correia into the equation.  He turns up at court for the trial claiming to represent Leonor Cipriano even though she already had a lawyer.  She pleads not guilty to murder and refuses to testify.  João has also changed his plea and refuses to testify.

5. The police are left with no option but to go ahead and carry out a full murder investigation, the result of which we all now know.

Good grief!

Torture has been proven in a Portuguese court of law.

The question of whether the torture came after or before the "confession" is irrelevant. 

The fact of (proven) torture (by police) indicates, clearly, that the whole interview process was conducted under circumstances of duress, which ought to have been grounds, in its own right, for outright acquittal.

Instead, Leonor had her sentence increased because she is deemed not to have got her facts entirely straight while tied, terrified, to a chair, and beaten to a point of near blindness.

To say that this was not the finest hour of Portuguese "justice" would be an understatement ....

[ferryman]

And yet you appear to be arguing that her conviction is perfectly sound. 

And citing the fact that she and her brother both confessed in similar fact. 

The very fact that torture was proven in court (even in the actual perpetrators could not be identified) would make me very cautious of being too certain of anything relating to this case.

That's the concise (and understated!) version ....

[Eleanor]

Are you presuming she is not guilty ?

I am.

[stephen25000]

I am.

and what if you are wrong ?

What makes you think the witnesses who gave statements of how she was treated ?

[Mr Gray]

Are you presuming she is not guilty ?

I would like more information before making a decision but at the moment it looks like a high possibility of  a miscarriage of justice. Even Joanna's teacher said she didn't think leonora could have harmed joanna. there seems to be a lot of rumour with little basis in fact that has caused some to believe she is a murderer....which it would appear she isn't ...as the crime proved seemed to be more manslaughter

[slartibartfast]

Good grief!

Torture has been proven in a Portuguese court of law.

The question of whether the torture came after or before the "confession" is irrelevant. 

The fact of (proven) torture (by police) indicates, clearly, that the whole interview process was conducted under circumstances of duress, which ought to have been grounds, in its own right, for outright acquittal.

Instead, Leonor had her sentence increased because she is deemed not to have got her facts entirely straight while tied, terrified, to a chair, and beaten to a point of near blindness.

To say that this was not the finest hour of Portuguese "justice" would be an understatement ....

Torture was mentioned in the summing up and was explained as suffering aggression whilst in custody. As you appear to be discounting the prior confession you seem to be suggesting that any criminal who can goad the police into giving them a slap should be automatically acquitted.

[Mr Gray]

and what if you are wrong ?

What makes you think the witnesses who gave statements of how she was treated ?

which witnesses are those...they don't seem to exist....the article admin linked to yesterday confirmed basically none of the claims made

[Mr Gray]

Torture was mentioned in the summing up and was explained as suffering aggression whilst in custody. As you appear to be discounting the prior confession you seem to be suggesting that any criminal who can goad the police into giving them a slap should be automatically acquitted.

not if there is evidence to convict them but certainly if there is no evidence...as it appears in this case

[Jean-Pierre]

Are you presuming she is not guilty ?

I do not know whether she is guilty or not.  The proven fact that she has been subject to torture by members of the police force investigating her case clouds the issue. 

I would be very cautious about making a pronouncement either way. 

[slartibartfast]

not if there is evidence to convict them but certainly if there is no evidence...as it appears in this case

The Judge obviously thought there was enough evidence.

[Carana]

And yet you appear to be arguing that her conviction is perfectly sound. 

And citing the fact that she and her brother both confessed in similar fact. 

The very fact that torture was proven in court (even in the actual perpetrators could not be identified) would make me very cautious of being too certain of anything relating to this case.

Bluffing techniques, as in pitting the supposed allegations of one against the other, are not unknown. It can't be proven if this did occur as, conveniently, there is no AV record of their time in police custody.

Such techniques may well lead to a real confession in some cases, but they should surely be considered as a starting point for verification... not as an end-point with a bow on it.

[jassi]

The Judge obviously thought there was enough evidence.

No, not good enough - what does a judge know compared with all these armchair experts ?

[Mr Gray]

The Judge obviously thought there was enough evidence.

in every miscarriage of justice case the accused is found guilty