Author Topic: Why is there so much support for Leonor Cipriano from McCann supporters?  (Read 334477 times)

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Offline Admin

Re: Why is there so much support for Leonor Cipriano from McCann supporters?
« Reply #1080 on: January 17, 2016, 09:31:36 PM »
I'd be interested in reading more about that. Do you have a link?

On the last day of the trial the voice of João Cipriano was heard in court by virtue of a video recording made by the Judicial Police during investigations.  In brutal detail he confessed to killing Joana and of disposing of her body.  The defence objected claiming that João's words had no value since the defendants chose not to testify at trial. The judge overruled the objection.

Offline carlymichelle

Re: Why is there so much support for Leonor Cipriano from McCann supporters?
« Reply #1081 on: January 17, 2016, 09:34:03 PM »
It surely don't sound like the comments of two innocent folk now do it ?.


Nope  and let's face. It if  Amaral  had not been. Involved in this case  McCann supporters wouldn't care  less


Offline Mr Gray

Re: Why is there so much support for Leonor Cipriano from McCann supporters?
« Reply #1082 on: January 17, 2016, 09:35:55 PM »
The only pieces of the Cipriano case which are as yet undetermined are what part Leonor and John Cipriano actually played in the girl's demise.  Originally Leonor claimed that she had hit the girl striking her head off a wall in the house causing death, she also claimed that she asked her brother to hide the body.  Next John Cipriano claimed that they both had done it and that he hid the body.  Despite being released on bail he failed to locate the girls remains.  He took police to several sites which would appear that he was playing for time all along and had no intention of finding any body.

The story then morphs into a child abduction and trafficking case. It was claimed that this had gone wrong and that John Cipriano had panicked and killed the girl.  Certainly much later and before her appeal, Leonor Cipriano signed a written deposition blaming her brother for the abduction and killing.

So who is telling the truth?

It depends how much credence you place on confessions extracted by torture or threat of torture...I place very little.....


Offline Mr Gray

Re: Why is there so much support for Leonor Cipriano from McCann supporters?
« Reply #1083 on: January 17, 2016, 09:37:51 PM »
On the last day of the trial the voice of João Cipriano was heard in court by virtue of a video recording made by the Judicial Police during investigations.  In brutal detail he confessed to killing Joana and of disposing of her body.  The defence objected claiming that João's words had no value since the defendants chose not to testify at trial. The judge overruled the objection.

the objection was that such a recording is not allowed as only confessions repeated in court are admissible...that is an undisputed fact....

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Why is there so much support for Leonor Cipriano from McCann supporters?
« Reply #1084 on: January 17, 2016, 09:38:32 PM »

Nope  and let's face. It if  Amaral  had not been. Involved in this case  McCann supporters wouldn't care  less

People who care about justice and about injustice are concerned about injustice wherever it occurs.

But inevitably, not everyone hears about every instance (of injustice).

All anyone can do is respond (in whatever capacity they are able) to instances of injustice where (both) they occur and people hear about them ....

Offline Admin

Re: Why is there so much support for Leonor Cipriano from McCann supporters?
« Reply #1085 on: January 17, 2016, 09:38:50 PM »
2009. Leonor Cipriano blames brother John for the murder of her daughter.

www.miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3343.msg127258#msg127258

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Why is there so much support for Leonor Cipriano from McCann supporters?
« Reply #1086 on: January 17, 2016, 09:39:33 PM »
The only pieces of the Cipriano case which are as yet undetermined are what part Leonor and John Cipriano actually played in the girl's demise.  Originally Leonor claimed that she had hit the girl striking her head off a wall in the house causing death, she also claimed that she asked her brother to hide the body.  Next John Cipriano claimed that they both had done it and that he hid the body.  Despite being released on bail he failed to locate the girls remains.  He took police to several sites which would appear that he was playing for time all along and had no intention of finding any body.

The story then morphs into a child abduction and trafficking case. It was claimed that this had gone wrong and that John Cipriano had panicked and killed the girl.  Certainly much later and before her appeal, Leonor Cipriano signed a written deposition blaming her brother for the abduction and killing.

So who is telling the truth?

just to remind you there is no evidence Joanna is dead apart from the confessions extracted either under torture or the threat of torture

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Why is there so much support for Leonor Cipriano from McCann supporters?
« Reply #1087 on: January 17, 2016, 09:42:40 PM »
2009. Leonor Cipriano blames brother John for the murder of her daughter.

www.miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3343.msg127258#msg127258

That is in 2009.....7 years ago...no where near leonor's release date

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Why is there so much support for Leonor Cipriano from McCann supporters?
« Reply #1088 on: January 17, 2016, 09:45:53 PM »
if posters don't want to admit there is a POSSIBILITY of a miscarriage of justice...if they want to claim the verdict is 100% correct when they do not have all the information...then fair enough...i think that is a difficult argumnet to support

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Why is there so much support for Leonor Cipriano from McCann supporters?
« Reply #1089 on: January 17, 2016, 09:47:02 PM »
2009. Leonor Cipriano blames brother John for the murder of her daughter.

www.miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3343.msg127258#msg127258

But during the trial, Leonor changed version, denying the accusation.

My understanding is that during the trial, Leonor and Joao both exercised right of silence ....

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Why is there so much support for Leonor Cipriano from McCann supporters?
« Reply #1090 on: January 17, 2016, 09:50:22 PM »
But during the trial, Leonor changed version, denying the accusation.

My understanding is that during the trial, Leonor and Joao both exercised right of silence ....

The clear understanding is that Ms. Cipriano kept changing her story of what happened as did her dear brother.

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Why is there so much support for Leonor Cipriano from McCann supporters?
« Reply #1091 on: January 17, 2016, 09:51:44 PM »
The clear understanding is that Ms. Cipriano kept changing her story of what happened as did her dear brother.

No.  I don't believe so.

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Why is there so much support for Leonor Cipriano from McCann supporters?
« Reply #1092 on: January 17, 2016, 09:52:39 PM »
No.  I don't believe so.

That is a matter of fact.

Get over it.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Why is there so much support for Leonor Cipriano from McCann supporters?
« Reply #1093 on: January 17, 2016, 09:52:59 PM »
But during the trial, Leonor changed version, denying the accusation.

My understanding is that during the trial, Leonor and Joao both exercised right of silence ....

I believe that is true....from what I can gather the evidence was so weak their lawyer felt it was impossible to convict them...they were totally thrown by the court allowing the video of Jaoa to be shown...video confessions are not admissible but the prosecution claimed it was a reconstruction

Offline Carana

Re: Why is there so much support for Leonor Cipriano from McCann supporters?
« Reply #1094 on: January 17, 2016, 09:56:21 PM »
The confession was accepted by the court even though Correia's lawyer Marcos Correia objected to it which was his right.  The judges undoubtedly heard the tape recording prior to it being played to the court and decided on balance that it was given freely and without coercion.  Those are the facts, we are stuck with them, no amount of maybes and if only's can change that situation.

Bottom line is both Leonor and John Cipriano confessed at different stages of the proceedings to this dreadful crime for which they were ultimately found guilty on the evidence.  If they were innocent as some claim they had every opportunity to give evidence to the court but they refused.  They have nobody to blame but themselves.

Ahh, so you mean the video of the so-called "reconstruction", then?


The defence did object (Marcos Aragão wasn't even on the scene at that point, AFAIK, so I'm not sure where that idea came from), on the grounds that it constituted a "confession" and shouldn't have been admissible as the defendants didn't take the stand. The court ruled that it was a different form of evidence and was therefore admissible.

What no one seems to have questioned is the circumstances leading up to this "reconstruction". João has stated that he was threatened with being stabbed and was frequently beaten. That may or may not be true. He may, after all, have been offered coffee and cupcakes by the same PJ.

Without CCTV evidence of "interviews", it's one person's word against the venerable PJ.

On the other side, there was no evidence that he'd had to be taken to hospital due to an excess of  "coffee and cupcakes", but then neither can I find any evidence that the defence ever tried to found out.