Why is there so much support for Leonor Cipriano from McCann supporters?

[John]

Now just for a change let's have a look at any evidence which supports her innocence.

Any takers?

[Carana]

Never justified, yet you know it goes on, within the parameters of 'rendition'.


I wonder whether you would say the same if a close friend of yours or a relative, could have been saved, or hundreds of peoples lives, say by rendition of a terrorist who under examination/torture revealed the details of a major terrorist operation before it was carried out.

Whatever one's views on extreme measures in extreme circumstances of imminent mass massacre, this wasn't one of them.

In a number of such recent cases, intelligence and covert suveillance have been able to pre-empt or minimise attacks. Not all of them, sadly.

From what I have read, torture - on the whole - doesn't seem to be conducive to eliciting truth, as opposed to getting any response, however erroneous, in order to get the torture to stop. How is that effective, if it leads to wild-goose chases?

[Mr Gray]

Now just for a change let's have a look at any evidence which supports her innocence.

Any takers?

Joanna's teacher said she did not think leonor would harm Joanna

[stephen25000]

Whatever one's views on extreme measures in extreme circumstances of imminent mass massacre, this wasn't one of them.

In a number of such recent cases, intelligence and covert suveillance have been able to pre-empt or minimise attacks. Not all of them, sadly.

From what I have read, torture - on the whole - doesn't seem to be conducive to eliciting truth, as opposed to getting any response, however erroneous, in order to get the torture to stop. How is that effective, if it leads to wild-goose chases?

I agree with you on the whole

However, do you really think torture will be stopped ?

[Carana]

Now just for a change let's have a look at any evidence which supports her innocence.

Any takers?

The thread on what evidence one would expect to find in a child abduction is one of the most threadbare. Perhaps we could resurrect that one, unles Admin objects...

[Carana]

I agree with you on the whole

However, do you really think torture will be stopped ?

This must be one of the first times that we almost agree... *Faints*

But seriously, modern technology and methods seem far more effective, at least from what I've read of hostage raids, for example.

This was a case of a single missing child, who may - or may not - have come to harm via her mother and uncle.

I know that you will never agree, but I find it possible that they really had no idea what happened to her and the available evidence that I've been able to find doesn't substantiate that she'd ever got home, let alone had been killed there.

[Jean-Pierre]

Now just for a change let's have a look at any evidence which supports her innocence.

Any takers?

Given that the prosecution seems to be based on circumstantial evidence and a "confession", and police torture was proven by the subsequent court, I would feel very uneasy about pronouncing either way.  She may be guilty, she may be innocent. 

But it not for Cipriano to provide proof of her innocence, as you well know. 

I am intrigued by the number of posters on a forum marching under the banner of "UK Justice" forum who have such difficulty with the general concept 0f "presumption of innocence".

And who seem to be so relaxed about torture by the police.     

[slartibartfast]

Given that the prosecution seems to be based on circumstantial evidence and a "confession", and police torture was proven by the subsequent court, I would feel very uneasy about pronouncing either way.  She may be guilty, she may be innocent. 

But it not for Cipriano to provide proof of her innocence, as you well know. 

I am intrigued by the number of posters on a forum marching under the banner of "UK Justice" forum who have such difficulty with the general concept 0f "presumption of innocence".
 
And who seem to be so relaxed about torture by the police.   

I don't think Joao (sp) was tortured and he confessed?

[stephen25000]

This must be one of the first times that we almost agree... *Faints*

But seriously, modern technology and methods seem far more effective, at least from what I've read of hostage raids, for example.

This was a case of a single missing child, who may - or may not - have come to harm via her mother and uncle.

I know that you will never agree, but I find it possible that they really had no idea what happened to her and the available evidence that I've been able to find doesn't substantiate that she'd ever got home, let alone had been killed there.

At least we have some measure of agreement Carana.

As to the Cipriano's we will have to agree to differ.

[Carana]

[Snip]

Both the aunt and Leandro identified her shoes.

I've looked through the 2006 SC ruling again and I can't find where Leandro mentioned her shoes. Have I missed it?

[Eleanor]

What is wrong with bare feet?

[Mr Gray]

I don't think Joao (sp) was tortured and he confessed?

i think he was...but gave in very quickly

[slartibartfast]

i think he was...but gave in very quickly

Any basis for that?

[Mr Gray]

Any basis for that?

i'm fairly sure I have read it somewhere...are you suggesting he just admitted the crime totally voluntarily...we know the pj have form for extracting information via torture

[John]

I've looked through the 2006 SC ruling again and I can't find where Leandro mentioned her shoes. Have I missed it?

Did you miss the interview with Gonçalo when he confirmed her red shoes, the ones she was supposed to have been wearing when she disappeared (according to her mother) were found IN THE HOUSE?