Why is there so much support for Leonor Cipriano from McCann supporters?

[stephen25000]

I disagree.

I didn't say that re-investigating the Joana case would be under anyone's official remit.

There's no obvious connection to the Ylenia case, either, but the Met appears to have been in contact with the Swiss police. From memory, the PJ did actually check if there could be a connection with the MariLuz case. In those tragic cases, the children's remains were eventually found.

The sad fact is that there are still two young girls missing (one officially, the other not), whereabouts and fate unknown. They both disappeared within the space of a couple of years not far from each other.

There may be no connection at all, but the possibility of one surely has to be examined, even if only for elimination purposes.

That reply personifies the mccann supporter mantra.

To try to establish a link between the two cases.

I remember at one point, when on one of the mccann supporter sites, probably from memory the 'original' ..... site, that someone there tried to implicate Amaral in Madeleine's disappearance. That was pure stupidity.

[Carana]

You really are going off at a tangent.

Why should SY be checking a case 13 years previously to the mccann one, and which bore no resemblance to it whatsoever and simply not under their remit ?

Joana disappeared on 12 Sept 2004. Madeleine disappeared on 3 May 2007. I don't make that 13 years apart...

[stephen25000]

Joana disappeared on 12 Sept 2004. Madeleine disappeared on 3 May 2007. I don't make that 13 years apart...

What a pathetic reply.

Talk about clutching at straws.

I wonder what you will come up with next.

[Carana]

What a pathetic reply.

Talk about clutching at straws.

I wonder what you will come up with next.

I'm not clutching at straws. A 13-year span between the two (which was your point) would tend to make a potential link more tenuous. I was pointing out that they both disappeared within 10 km or so and 2.5 years of each other.

Nuance.

Again, the investigation may reveal that any connection has been eliminated, or that there is insufficient evidence of one, but ignoring the Joana case completely without checking out the possibility, particularly in view of the lack of hard evidence in the Joana case, would not constitute a thorough investigation IMHO.

[Brietta]

What a pathetic reply.

Talk about clutching at straws.

I wonder what you will come up with next.

It seems that you are the one who has a complete disregard for Joana Cipriano and what may have become of her.

Combined with your contempt for due process ... that is quite a mixture.

I have not seen any evidence that the McCann supporters on this thread or any another support anyone involved in a heinous crime.

Speaking for myself, I prefer if people are convicted on evidence.  I prefer if the right people are apprehended and convicted.  I am appalled by those who think the appalling torture suffered by Leonor Cipriano is not of any importance.  Particularly as, like you, they attest that she had already confessed before a magistrate.

If that is the case ... should be easy enough for you to cite exactly who the magistrate was and when ... rather than asking other members to disprove it.

That "prior confession" raises the question of why at least five men removed a defenceless woman from prison - took her to a police station, where there was no female presence or legal representation - and beat her over a period of forty eight hours after which she 'confessed' ... and retracted as soon as she could when she was safely out of their hands.

[Jean-Pierre]

You avoided my questions.

When did the first confessions take place ?

Was her brother 'tortured' ?

So the PJ are still using 'torture' as part of their professional lives ?

Can you cite more recent examples of that, as you implying it is still a regular occurrence ?

You are trying to defect, to avoid answering a very simple question - which is "is a conviction where police torture has been used to be regarded as safe?" - yes or no

You wanted a few examples - off the top of my head and confining to those in the public domain for obvious reasons: 

AI 2013

http://www.amnestyusa.org/research/reports/annual-report-portugal-2013

 Torture and other ill-treatment

A criminal investigation into the use of a Taser against an inmate in Paços de Ferreira prison in 2010 did not progress despite the findings of an inquiry by the Audit and Inspection services of the General Directorate for prisons that two members of the Prison Security Intervention Group had used the weapon disproportionately. The outcome of disciplinary proceedings against the two prison officers remained pending at the end of the year.

    The trial of three police officers accused of torturing Virgolino Borges in March 2000 while in police custody, which started in November 2011, made little progress.

http://www.ihrc.org.uk/activities/ihrc-at-un/10736-2014-upr-report-on-portugal

B. Background

1. During the period 2009-2013, one of the main concerns regarding Portugal’s human rights record was use of excessive force by law enforcement officials including police and prison staff on allegations of torture and other ill-treatment.  In 2010, judicial investigation of allegations of Portugal’s involvement in rendition flights to Guantanamo Bay of terror suspects was closed due to lack of evidence. During the same period, there were law enforcement officials implicated in two high-profile cases of torture and other ill-treatment.  Their prosecution proceeded very slowly.  Details on three cases, including two high profile cases are mentioned in Amnesty International reports on Portugal between 2009 and 2013.

Torture and other ill-treatment

In July 2014, two prison officers were handed an eight-month suspended sentence by the court of Paços de Ferreira for using excessive force against a detainee in the Paços de Ferreira prison in 2010. The two officers had entered the prisoner‘s cell to force him to either clean it or leave in order for the cell to be cleaned. Even though the detainee obeyed orders to stand up, turn his back to the cell door and face the window, the officers used a Taser to immobilize him. The court considered that the Taser was used disproportionately, particularly as the man had not resorted to any violence against the prison officers.
Prison conditions

https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/europe-and-central-asia/portugal/report-portugal/

In December 2013, the UN Committee against Torture highlighted reports of ill-treatment and excessive use of force, as well as prison overcrowding and deplorable prison conditions, particularly in the Prison of Santa Cruz do Bispo and the Lisbon Central Prison.

http://www.cpt.coe.int/documents/prt/1996-31-inf-eng.htm

        2. Torture and other forms of ill-treatment

            a. introduction

11. In the course of its visit, the CPT's delegation spoke to many persons about their experiences while in police custody. Such persons were interviewed in the police establishments visited and in the Judicial Police Prisons in Lisbon and Oporto. The delegation also visited Oporto Prison with the express purpose of speaking with prisoners on remand about their treatment by the police.

12. A significant proportion of the persons interviewed alleged that they had been ill-treated while in police custody. As during the CPT's visit to Portugal in 1992, the principal form of ill-treatment alleged was physical assault (i.e. kicks and blows with fists, truncheons or batons). Further, the delegation again heard a few allegations that detained persons had been subjected to simultaneous blows to both ears with telephone directories or beaten on the soles of their feet (falaka).

Moreover, there were frequent allegations about the excessive use of force (in particular, the infliction of blows with batons) by police officers at the time of arrest. A number of detainees also alleged that they had been physically assaulted by members of the public, in the presence of police officers who did not intervene to prevent them being injured.

On examination by the delegation's doctors, a number of the persons who alleged that they had been ill-treated were found to display marks or conditions consistent with their allegations.

13. It might be added that the existence of such ill-treatment by the police was affirmed by representatives of non-governmental organisations with which the delegation held talks and supported by other information with which it was supplied

[stephen25000]

It seems that you are the one who has a complete disregard for Joana Cipriano and what may have become of her.

Combined with your contempt for due process ... that is quite a mixture.

I have not seen any evidence that the McCann supporters on this thread or any another support anyone involved in a heinous crime.

Speaking for myself, I prefer if people are convicted on evidence.  I prefer if the right people are apprehended and convicted.  I am appalled by those who think the appalling torture suffered by Leonor Cipriano is not of any importance.  Particularly as, like you, they attest that she had already confessed before a magistrate.

If that is the case ... should be easy enough for you to cite exactly who the magistrate was and when ... rather than asking other members to disprove it.

That "prior confession" raises the question of why at least five men removed a defenceless woman from prison - took her to a police station, where there was no female presence or legal representation - and beat her over a period of forty eight hours after which she 'confessed' ... and retracted as soon as she could when she was safely out of their hands.

Well, I never.

Trying to speak on my behalf and make interpretations of how  I view these cases.

You and other mccann supporters try to pretend you hold the moral high ground,  when you do no such thing.

The only motivating force repeatedly apparent in your and your fellow supporters posts is all out back in of the 'Drs Mccann'.  Nothing else permeates from your posts, other than that and you tag on to other cases such as the Cipriano one for that very purpose.

Well, let me tell you reasonable people reading through your posts will see through your posts as easily as a hot knife slides through butter.

Make no mistake on that.

[Jean-Pierre]

Well, I never.

Trying to speak on my behalf and make interpretations of how  I view these cases.

You and other mccann supporters try to pretend you hold the moral high ground,  when you do no such thing.

The only motivating force repeatedly apparent in your and your fellow supporters posts is all out back in of the 'Drs Mccann'.  Nothing else permeates from your posts, other than that and you tag on to other cases such as the Cipriano one for that very purpose.

Well, let me tell you reasonable people reading through your posts will see through your posts as easily as a hot knife slides through butter.

Make no mistake on that.

The only one mentioning 'Drs Mccann' is you, Stephen.

Others are more focussed on the unacceptable use of torture by police, and the possibility that the conviction of leonor cipriano may just may, be usafe as a result of the methods used.

[stephen25000]

You are trying to defect, to avoid answering a very simple question - which is "is a conviction where police torture has been used to be regarded as safe?" - yes or no

You wanted a few examples - off the top of my head and confining to those in the public domain for obvious reasons: 

AI 2013

http://www.amnestyusa.org/research/reports/annual-report-portugal-2013

 Torture and other ill-treatment

A criminal investigation into the use of a Taser against an inmate in Paços de Ferreira prison in 2010 did not progress despite the findings of an inquiry by the Audit and Inspection services of the General Directorate for prisons that two members of the Prison Security Intervention Group had used the weapon disproportionately. The outcome of disciplinary proceedings against the two prison officers remained pending at the end of the year.

    The trial of three police officers accused of torturing Virgolino Borges in March 2000 while in police custody, which started in November 2011, made little progress.

http://www.ihrc.org.uk/activities/ihrc-at-un/10736-2014-upr-report-on-portugal

B. Background

1. During the period 2009-2013, one of the main concerns regarding Portugal’s human rights record was use of excessive force by law enforcement officials including police and prison staff on allegations of torture and other ill-treatment.  In 2010, judicial investigation of allegations of Portugal’s involvement in rendition flights to Guantanamo Bay of terror suspects was closed due to lack of evidence. During the same period, there were law enforcement officials implicated in two high-profile cases of torture and other ill-treatment.  Their prosecution proceeded very slowly.  Details on three cases, including two high profile cases are mentioned in Amnesty International reports on Portugal between 2009 and 2013.

Torture and other ill-treatment

In July 2014, two prison officers were handed an eight-month suspended sentence by the court of Paços de Ferreira for using excessive force against a detainee in the Paços de Ferreira prison in 2010. The two officers had entered the prisoner‘s cell to force him to either clean it or leave in order for the cell to be cleaned. Even though the detainee obeyed orders to stand up, turn his back to the cell door and face the window, the officers used a Taser to immobilize him. The court considered that the Taser was used disproportionately, particularly as the man had not resorted to any violence against the prison officers.
Prison conditions

https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/europe-and-central-asia/portugal/report-portugal/

In December 2013, the UN Committee against Torture highlighted reports of ill-treatment and excessive use of force, as well as prison overcrowding and deplorable prison conditions, particularly in the Prison of Santa Cruz do Bispo and the Lisbon Central Prison.

http://www.cpt.coe.int/documents/prt/1996-31-inf-eng.htm

        2. Torture and other forms of ill-treatment

            a. introduction

11. In the course of its visit, the CPT's delegation spoke to many persons about their experiences while in police custody. Such persons were interviewed in the police establishments visited and in the Judicial Police Prisons in Lisbon and Oporto. The delegation also visited Oporto Prison with the express purpose of speaking with prisoners on remand about their treatment by the police.

12. A significant proportion of the persons interviewed alleged that they had been ill-treated while in police custody. As during the CPT's visit to Portugal in 1992, the principal form of ill-treatment alleged was physical assault (i.e. kicks and blows with fists, truncheons or batons). Further, the delegation again heard a few allegations that detained persons had been subjected to simultaneous blows to both ears with telephone directories or beaten on the soles of their feet (falaka).

Moreover, there were frequent allegations about the excessive use of force (in particular, the infliction of blows with batons) by police officers at the time of arrest. A number of detainees also alleged that they had been physically assaulted by members of the public, in the presence of police officers who did not intervene to prevent them being injured.

On examination by the delegation's doctors, a number of the persons who alleged that they had been ill-treated were found to display marks or conditions consistent with their allegations.

13. It might be added that the existence of such ill-treatment by the police was affirmed by representatives of non-governmental organisations with which the delegation held talks and supported by other information with which it was supplied

Now JP, as you have spent presumably the last couple of hours looking up that. What don't you now give examples of brutality by UK police forces in the same period, as a comparison.

What you and your fellows want to do is stick the lkabel of 'torture' on the PJ for very obvious reasons.

Now was Cipriano's brother 'tortured' to exact a confession ?

[stephen25000]

The only one mentioning 'Drs Mccann' is you, Stephen.

Others are more focussed on the unacceptable use of torture by police, and the possibility that the conviction of leonor cipriano may just may, be usafe as a result of the methods used.

You and your fellows don't fool anyone.

Your sole aim is to defend the mccanns and this thread reflects that, all too well.

[Brietta]

Well, I never.

Trying to speak on my behalf and make interpretations of how  I view these cases.

You and other mccann supporters try to pretend you hold the moral high ground,  when you do no such thing.

The only motivating force repeatedly apparent in your and your fellow supporters posts is all out back in of the 'Drs Mccann'.  Nothing else permeates from your posts, other than that and you tag on to other cases such as the Cipriano one for that very purpose.

Well, let me tell you reasonable people reading through your posts will see through your posts as easily as a hot knife slides through butter.

Make no mistake on that.

Don't know if you've noticed or not ... but you appear to be on your own when it comes to defending this particular indefensible.

The horror of the mere suggestion of torture of the kind proven to have been suffered by Leonora Cipriana seems to be recognised by most other sceptic posters ;)

[Mr Gray]

You and your fellows don't fool anyone.

Your sole aim is to defend the mccanns.

your posts are looking ridiculous...you obviously are not following the debate

[Mr Gray]

Now JP, as you have spent presumably the last couple of hours looking up that. What don't you now give examples of brutality by UK police forces in the same period, as a comparison.

What you and your fellows want to do is stick the lkabel of 'torture' on the PJ for very obvious reasons.

Now was Cipriano's brother 'tortured' to exact a confession ?

it was Amnesty international who put the torture label on this PJ...get your facts right

[stephen25000]

It is quite staggering the lengths McCann supporters will take in order to link the cases.

[Carana]

Now JP, as you have spent presumably the last couple of hours looking up that. What don't you now give examples of brutality by UK police forces in the same period, as a comparison.

What you and your fellows want to do is stick the lkabel of 'torture' on the PJ for very obvious reasons.

Now was Cipriano's brother 'tortured' to exact a confession ?

Without any form of accountability, it's impossible to know. His version is that he only accepted to do that reconstruction and sign on the dotted line due to threats of violence. He and others state that they were regularly beaten up by the PJ. Leandro (who didn't particularly like João as a person anyway) stated in an interview predating Madeleine's disappearance, that he was acting strangely the day of the "reconstruction" and remains convinced that he was somehow forced into it. 

Whatever actually happened in the PJ on the night of the "slippery stair" incident, Leonor's injuries were discounted as being attributable to a fall down the stairs and that therefore the "official" PJ version is not what actually occurred.

The concept of "in dubio, pro reo" appears to be honourable in theory, but rarely applied in practice.

I accept that anyone who is in fact guilty could falsely plead to having been beaten up to force a confession out of them, when this may not be the case. On the other hand, without police accountability (e.g. via a full AV record to disprove the allegations), whose version of events is likely to be considered more credible? The PJ or the defendant? And on what basis?