Author Topic: Could fingerprints still be identified from the casings?  (Read 15422 times)

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Offline Holly Goodhead

Could fingerprints still be identified from the casings?
« on: January 01, 2016, 05:30:32 PM »
When I was checking out something unrelated I stumbled across the following.  If the casings still exist this could potentially provide the proof everyone is looking for.

JB states he left the magazine full (10) and maybe a bullet in the breach (1).  25 shots were fired with 24 casings recovered.  Therefore the perp must have loaded a further 14 or 15 bullets.

The new forensic technique involves fingerprints on metals whereby the fingerprint/sweat causes corrosion of the metal so even if washed or wiped an indelible print remains and the technique is able to reveal the fingerprint.

http://www2.le.ac.uk/research/challenges/safe/fingerprint


As we know the bullets are tiny so unlikely to contain full prints but they should contain enough partials to determine whose prints are on the 13 or 14 casings: JB or SC.  If none then this might strongly suggest JB was the perp and wore gloves.  Alternatively enough partials may be found strongly suggesting SC was the perp.  Or of course the technique might reveal JB's prints either in full or sufficient  partials to conclude beyond any doubt he was the perp.

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2008/aug/28/forensicscience.fingerpr

69
« Last Edit: January 26, 2016, 01:50:49 PM by John »
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Myster

Re: Could fingerprints still be identified from the casings?
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2016, 05:42:34 PM »
I knew we'd never hear the last of it, once you'd got your jaws round the bone.

How big is your bank account?
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Could fingerprints still be identified from the casings?
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2016, 11:39:22 PM »
I knew we'd never hear the last of it, once you'd got your jaws round the bone.

How big is your bank account?

Apparently it costs 50k to buy the complete kit.  I assume it's possible to pay a provider to carry out the tests. 

https://globalwrong.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/introducing-cera.pdf

Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Myster

Re: Could fingerprints still be identified from the casings?
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2016, 06:59:36 AM »
Meanwhile, back at HQ:

"Sarge... I've been reading up on one of these 'ere internet forums, and there's this bird who's just a bit too nosey. You know those casings in that Bamber case we've had salted away for the last 30 years... do you think we could dust 'em off and touch 'em up with some wire-wool and Brasso?  Just to get rid of a bit o' that corrosion like."

"Aye, that sounds good to me, they should come up shiny and brand new. I'll turf 'em out and put yer name forward for promotion!"
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Could fingerprints still be identified from the casings?
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2016, 08:36:36 PM »
Meanwhile, back at HQ:

"Sarge... I've been reading up on one of these 'ere internet forums, and there's this bird who's just a bit too nosey. You know those casings in that Bamber case we've had salted away for the last 30 years... do you think we could dust 'em off and touch 'em up with some wire-wool and Brasso?  Just to get rid of a bit o' that corrosion like."

"Aye, that sounds good to me, they should come up shiny and brand new. I'll turf 'em out and put yer name forward for promotion!"

Lol I had similar thoughts myself!
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline John

Re: Could fingerprints still be identified from the casings?
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2016, 03:56:22 PM »
When I was checking out something unrelated I stumbled across the following.  If the casings still exist this could potentially provide the proof everyone is looking for.

JB states he left the magazine full (10) and maybe a bullet in the breach (1).  25 shots were fired with 24 casings recovered.  Therefore the perp must have loaded a further 14 or 15 bullets.

The new forensic technique involves fingerprints on metals whereby the fingerprint/sweat causes corrosion of the metal so even if washed or wiped an indelible print remains and the technique is able to reveal the fingerprint.

http://www2.le.ac.uk/research/challenges/safe/fingerprint

As we know the bullets are tiny so unlikely to contain full prints but they should contain enough partials to determine whose prints are on the 13 or 14 casings: JB or SC.  If none then this might strongly suggest JB was the perp and wore gloves.  Alternatively enough partials may be found strongly suggesting SC was the perp.  Or of course the technique might reveal JB's prints either in full or sufficient  partials to conclude beyond any doubt he was the perp.

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2008/aug/28/forensicscience.fingerpr

I agree Holly, any partial print belonging to someone other than Jeremy could settle this issue once and for all.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2016, 04:17:15 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Could fingerprints still be identified from the casings?
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2016, 04:06:06 PM »
I agree Holly, any partial print belonging to someone other than Jeremy could settle this issue once and for all.

Lawyers and courts would not see it that way since Jeremy alleges the bullets by a phone were place there by him before Sheila among others used that phone and could have touched a bullet during the course of the phone conversation. It would not provide any evidence that she loaded the bullets into the weapon as opposed to just touched it while talking.  The evidence that would say whether she loaded multiple rounds would be the deposits and elevated lead levels.

So in the same way they deemed the DNA as being from innocent contact they would say the print could be from innocent and fails to explain away the lack of evidence that would have been on her hands had she loaded 15 rounds.

“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline John

Re: Could fingerprints still be identified from the casings?
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2016, 04:15:31 PM »
Lawyers and courts would not see it that way since Jeremy alleges the bullets by a phone were place there by him before Sheila among others used that phone and could have touched a bullet during the course of the phone conversation. It would not provide any evidence that she loaded the bullets into the weapon as opposed to just touched it while talking.  The evidence that would say whether she loaded multiple rounds would be the deposits and elevated lead levels.

So in the same way they deemed the DNA as being from innocent contact they would say the print could be from innocent and fails to explain away the lack of evidence that would have been on her hands had she loaded 15 rounds.

If Sheila's partial print or DNA is eventually found on one or more casings it certainly opens up an entirely new ball game.  I hasten to add though that I sincerely doubt whether that will ever happen.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2016, 01:38:12 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Myster

Re: Could fingerprints still be identified from the casings?
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2016, 10:12:27 PM »
Holly's gone quiet recently. She's probably on a pub crawl doing the rounds with her CERA collection box.

Amount raised so far - Ten quid plus two fake pound coins and a chocolate ha'penny.  8(8-))
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Could fingerprints still be identified from the casings?
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2016, 07:43:20 AM »
Holly's gone quiet recently. She's probably on a pub crawl doing the rounds with her CERA collection box.

Amount raised so far - Ten quid plus two fake pound coins and a chocolate ha'penny.  8(8-))

And that was after I spent hours scrubbing up  8)><(

If the whole kit costs 50k to purchase I can't see it costing more than a few hundred, at most, per casing.  Plus the cost of an expert in fingerprints to interpret the results.  I've sent the info to JB but I'm sure his spies have already briefed him.  I've offered to help out with funding tests in the past so I'm sure he knows the offer is there. 

I don't think funding will be an issue privately or publicly eg most media outlets would probably fund it for an exclusive.  The casings must show either:

- No prints - Guilty JB - wore gloves
- JB's prints - Guilty JB
- SC prints - SC was responsible

I guess the casings might also contain prints from others dependant on how they were handled eg SoC officer DC Hammersley and Malcolm Fletcher but it should be easy to eliminate their prints.

The product lit states other methods used for fingerprinting does not impact. 

The perp must have loaded an additional 14 bullets at least, less one missing case albeit we don't know which one, so that's at least 13 casings.  I don't buy into the idea that because JB tipped the casings onto the work top he can claim his prints are on them through innocent contamination.  Or SC just happened to innocently fiddle with 13 casings while she had a brief tel con with her Aunt Pam.  Neither will the CCRC/CoA.  They deal in common sense not flights of fancy.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2016, 10:27:31 AM by Holly Goodhead »
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Could fingerprints still be identified from the casings?
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2016, 10:25:34 AM »
Lawyers and courts would not see it that way since Jeremy alleges the bullets by a phone were place there by him before Sheila among others used that phone and could have touched a bullet during the course of the phone conversation. It would not provide any evidence that she loaded the bullets into the weapon as opposed to just touched it while talking.  The evidence that would say whether she loaded multiple rounds would be the deposits and elevated lead levels.

So in the same way they deemed the DNA as being from innocent contact they would say the print could be from innocent and fails to explain away the lack of evidence that would have been on her hands had she loaded 15 rounds.

I disagree.  We are not talking about one bullet/casing we're talking about at least 13 bullets/casings.  If SC's prints are on 13 bullets/casings it's almost certain CoA will overturn JB's conviction.  The criteria is simple 'had the jury have known about this would they have returned a different verdict'?

A few months ago Myster and myself had one of our mutually rewarding mass debating sessions re lead and residues from handling the bullets (you were too busy mass debating with Mike at the time to notice).  I concluded that the description of the bullets provided by Malcolm Fletcher bears no resemblance with the manufacturers product literature.  I made contact with Eley via email and telephone to confirm - see my email confirmation in the thread.  Furthermore the CoA doc states that:

177. At trial Brian Elliott, a scientist from the Home Office Forensic Science Laboratory, gave evidence that the item DRH/33 described as "Swabbing Kit – hands of Sheila Caffell" had been received at the laboratory on 13 September 1985. He said that tests had been carried out for the presence of lead and that only "very low levels of lead have been detected on the two hand swabs". He further reported that tests had been carried out on two members of the laboratory staff who had loaded eighteen cartridges, similar to those used to shoot those who died at White House Farm, into the magazine of the rifle, and "significantly higher levels of lead" had been detected. Clearly if this evidence was right it cast doubt upon Sheila Caffell having loaded the cartridges into the gun and thus to her having killed the others and then herself.

215. At trial Mr Elliott had given evidence of the results of testing the swabs for lead, which included information about other elements detectable on the swab. He had also given evidence of the comparative tests carried out on other scientists after they had handled ammunition from the same source as that used in the killings and loaded it into the magazine. The tests were said to demonstrate appreciably higher lead levels on the scientists' hands than were found on the swabs taken from the hands of Sheila Caffell. This was put forward as evidence that Sheila Caffell had not handled the cartridges in a manner consistent with her being the killer.

As you will see above the document refers to "similar" bullets and also the "same" bullets.  Were they similar or the same?  A scientific experiment requires the exact same bullet. 

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6629.msg272805#msg272805

Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Could fingerprints still be identified from the casings?
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2016, 12:58:44 PM »
And that was after I spent hours scrubbing up  8)><(

If the whole kit costs 50k to purchase I can't see it costing more than a few hundred, at most, per casing.  Plus the cost of an expert in fingerprints to interpret the results.  I've sent the info to JB but I'm sure his spies have already briefed him.  I've offered to help out with funding tests in the past so I'm sure he knows the offer is there. 

I don't think funding will be an issue privately or publicly eg most media outlets would probably fund it for an exclusive.  The casings must show either:

- No prints - Guilty JB - wore gloves
- JB's prints - Guilty JB
- SC prints - SC was responsible

I guess the casings might also contain prints from others dependant on how they were handled eg SoC officer DC Hammersley and Malcolm Fletcher but it should be easy to eliminate their prints.

The product lit states other methods used for fingerprinting does not impact. 

The perp must have loaded an additional 14 bullets at least, less one missing case albeit we don't know which one, so that's at least 13 casings. I don't buy into the idea that because JB tipped the casings onto the work top he can claim his prints are on them through innocent contamination.  Or SC just happened to innocently fiddle with 13 casings while she had a brief tel con with her Aunt Pam.  Neither will the CCRC/CoA.  They deal in common sense not flights of fancy.

I posted the above earlier a bit hurriedly and just wanted to point out that the above claims were not made by Myster.

I have no idea what will happen if the casings have been destroyed:

165. In February 1996, the Essex police destroyed many of the original trial exhibits without reference to the appellant or his legal representatives. It might have been necessary for this court to examine the circumstances in which this had happened. The police officer responsible contended that it was done without his appreciating that there was any on-going legal process that might require the further use of the exhibits. However, during argument it was agreed that the court could protect the appellant's position by making assumptions in his favour and that, therefore, it was unnecessary to resolve precisely how this came about.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Myster

Re: Could fingerprints still be identified from the casings?
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2016, 01:56:04 PM »
I posted the above earlier a bit hurriedly and just wanted to point out that the above claims were not made by Myster.

I have no idea what will happen if the casings have been destroyed:

165. In February 1996, the Essex police destroyed many of the original trial exhibits without reference to the appellant or his legal representatives. It might have been necessary for this court to examine the circumstances in which this had happened. The police officer responsible contended that it was done without his appreciating that there was any on-going legal process that might require the further use of the exhibits. However, during argument it was agreed that the court could protect the appellant's position by making assumptions in his favour and that, therefore, it was unnecessary to resolve precisely how this came about.

Yes, we all know who wrote that.


Who'd have thought a certain Mr Bond would come to the rescue of Holly Goodhead at the last minute...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-20081496

https://globalwrong.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/shell-casing-prints.pdf

According to this article, Dr John Bond is working on certain UK cases but doesn't state which ones, mmmm...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/mobile/uk/7844665.stm

... and he's even developed a cheaper method of corrosion analysis - CERA Light, which dispenses with the high-voltage electrostatic charge and graphite-coated spheres...

http://www.nides.cz/fileadmin/slozka/pdf/CERA_LT_Datasheet.pdf

Using the above vanilla contraption and those 13+ elusive brass casings (if EP still have and will ever release them), you can do the analysis yourself and your account will still be in the black!
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Could fingerprints still be identified from the casings?
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2016, 06:38:08 PM »
I disagree.  We are not talking about one bullet/casing we're talking about at least 13 bullets/casings.  If SC's prints are on 13 bullets/casings it's almost certain CoA will overturn JB's conviction.  The criteria is simple 'had the jury have known about this would they have returned a different verdict'?

A few months ago Myster and myself had one of our mutually rewarding mass debating sessions re lead and residues from handling the bullets (you were too busy mass debating with Mike at the time to notice).  I concluded that the description of the bullets provided by Malcolm Fletcher bears no resemblance with the manufacturers product literature.  I made contact with Eley via email and telephone to confirm - see my email confirmation in the thread.  Furthermore the CoA doc states that:

177. At trial Brian Elliott, a scientist from the Home Office Forensic Science Laboratory, gave evidence that the item DRH/33 described as "Swabbing Kit – hands of Sheila Caffell" had been received at the laboratory on 13 September 1985. He said that tests had been carried out for the presence of lead and that only "very low levels of lead have been detected on the two hand swabs". He further reported that tests had been carried out on two members of the laboratory staff who had loaded eighteen cartridges, similar to those used to shoot those who died at White House Farm, into the magazine of the rifle, and "significantly higher levels of lead" had been detected. Clearly if this evidence was right it cast doubt upon Sheila Caffell having loaded the cartridges into the gun and thus to her having killed the others and then herself.

215. At trial Mr Elliott had given evidence of the results of testing the swabs for lead, which included information about other elements detectable on the swab. He had also given evidence of the comparative tests carried out on other scientists after they had handled ammunition from the same source as that used in the killings and loaded it into the magazine. The tests were said to demonstrate appreciably higher lead levels on the scientists' hands than were found on the swabs taken from the hands of Sheila Caffell. This was put forward as evidence that Sheila Caffell had not handled the cartridges in a manner consistent with her being the killer.

As you will see above the document refers to "similar" bullets and also the "same" bullets.  Were they similar or the same?  A scientific experiment requires the exact same bullet. 

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6629.msg272805#msg272805


1) Fletcher's descriptions match perfectly with what Eley sold and what Nevill purchased.  Nevill purchased Eley 22LR subsonic hollow-points. That is what all the bullets tested were including the 30 in the kitchen. Nevill didn't purchase any other ammunition.  Such ammunition had a E on the back of the casing just like Fletcher described and the bullets were hollow points. I don't know what thread you are talking about but your inclinations are wrong. I asked Eley to research whether they sold any 37.5 grain hollow-points at the time or they were 40 at that point but Eley agents never got back to be they only said they sold 37.5 in the past not when they ceased.  So it is possible they were  only 37.5 grain not 40 but no way to know for sure which Eley was selling at the time.   

2) They tested bullets from the SAME source = they test fired bullets from the supply of 30 that was found in the kitchen.  The 22LR hollow-points they used for the loading test was not from the kitchen supply because nearly all of the were expended. they used the same kind of bullets but not from the supply that had been in the kitchen.  Only something like 3 if that of the kitchen bullets were not used in the test firing.

3) The evidence that proved Jeremy did it is the proof that Sheila can't have killed herself.  Whose prints were on the shell casings doesn't change that.  She can't have killed herself regardless of whether she handled the ammunition or not and could have handled it for innocent reasons.   It doesn't impact the major legs of the case so the COA would view it as irrelevant and not capable of disturbing the verdict.

Judges decide whether new evidence is objectively strong enough to undercut a major leg of a case and objectively would get a jury to acquit.  They look at the evidence sufficient for the jury to convict and then look at whether than can be undermined.  Her prints on the casings would undermine neither Julies testimony nor the evidence that she can't have killed herself.  Nor would it undermine the evidence that had she loaded the ammunition at the time of the killings that she would have had evidence on her hands.  A fingerprint on a casing but a lack of lead would evidence touching the case innocently not loading it into a magazine.

You grossly overestimate how an Appeals Court would view it. 

A good lawyer looks at what convicted the person and then tried to undermine that red herrings won't cut it. The jury was told they could convict based on either of 2 things:

1) if they believed Julie's testimony

2) the evidence proving Sheila could not have killed herself   

It is not some accident that on appeal lawyers have tried to find ways to attack Julie's credibility and the moderator evidence that is what was used at trial to convict her.

Evidence she loaded and fired the weapon is what the defense needs not evidence she simply touched the casings but didn't load it and didn't fire the weapon.   

Take the George case.  The prosecution told jurors that proof George fired a weapon and did it was the fact that he had a single grain of gunshot residue on him.   For whatever reason the defense did a horrible job and failed to get an expert to counter this.  The main premise of their case was bogus.  It takes a lot more than a single grain to establish one fired a weapon very recently.  A single grain is easy to transfer and much more than a single grain will deposit on a shooter.  Defense experts undermined the main plank of the case establishing he fired a weapon and thus his conviction was overturned.  Without this bogus claim the jury would not have convicted.

The defense needs to establish she loaded bullets and fired the gun and could have killed herself to get a new trial. Evidence she simply handled some of the bullets at some point in time and didn't even touch the lead bullet as would happen when you load them into a magazine would not cut it.  Only Julie recanting would be the other way to get a new trial.


 
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli