Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?

[Mr Gray]

Isn't that what doctors use when a patient's heart stops ? It could have easily happened to the twins.

no it couldn't

[Alice Purjorick]

I applaud your persistence Alfred;  I think it would be apparent that two doctors are capable of monitoring a child's respiration particularly if they are holding the children in their arms as they sleep.

Whether or not any substance was used to facilitate kidnapping Madeleine will probably never be known. 

Who was it from the Policia Judiciaria with the authority to authorise and command the testing of the twins who was present in Luz in the wee small hours of the 4th, anyway?

If one extends that argument it becomes risible.

[Alfred R Jones]

Isn't that what doctors use when a patient's heart stops ? It could have easily happened to the twins.

Doctors are trained to resuscitate in an emergency, giving mouth to mouth and chest compressions - but is it likely that a child who has been breathing normally would suddenly stop breathing without any warning signs first?

[faithlilly]

Doctors are trained to resuscitate in an emergency, giving mouth to mouth and chest compressions - but is it likely that a child who has been breathing normally would suddenly stop breathing without any warning signs first?

And what if mouth to mouth and chest compressions restart the heart ?

As to there being no warning signs I think the children being totally unresponsive would count as a warning sign, don't you ?

[Alfred R Jones]

And what if mouth to mouth and chest compressions restart the heart ?

As to there being no warning signs I think the children being totally unresponsive would count as a warning sign, don't you ?

Re: your first question - well that would be a good thing wouldn't it?
Re: your second question - I'm not sure if the children were TOTALLY unresponsive, or whether they gave indications that they were not comatose, such as normal breathing and pulse, normal sleep movement, etc, but then unlike Kate McCann and Fiona Payne neither you nor I are doctors, nor were we there that night so there's little point speculating.  The twins could not have been in safer hands, being looked after by the ones who cared more about them than anyone else on earth.

[faithlilly]

Re: your first question - well that would be a good thing wouldn't it?
Re: your second question - I'm not sure if the children were TOTALLY unresponsive, or whether they gave indications that they were not comatose, such as normal breathing and pulse, normal sleep movement, etc, but then unlike Kate McCann and Fiona Payne neither you nor I are doctors, nor were we there that night so there's little point speculating.  The twins could not have been in safer hands, being looked after by the ones who cared more about them than anyone else on earth.

Apologies I will ask again the question I meant to ask. What if mouth to mouth and chest compressions don't restart a child's heart ?

In answer to your responsive to my second question, why was Kate and her husband 'very concerned' if the twins seemed to be hail and hearty. Why was their unresponsive state troubling her still years later if she had judged on the night they were okay ? We know that she thought they had been drugged. We also know, if innocent, that she didn't know with what. That being the case no matter how much she held them on her lap, felt their back or checked their pulse she could not be sure ( without proper tests in a hospital ) what short-term, or indeed long term effects the drug could have had on her children.

[G-Unit]

Apologies I will ask again the question I meant to ask. What if mouth to mouth and chest compressions don't restart a child's heart ?

In answer to your responsive to my second question, why was Kate and her husband 'very concerned' if the twins seemed to be hail and hearty. Why was their unresponsive state troubling her still years later if she had judged on the night they were okay ? We know that she thought they had been drugged. We also know, if innocent, that she didn't know with what. That being the case no matter how much she held them on her lap, felt their back or checked their pulse she could not be sure ( without proper tests in a hospital ) what short-term, or indeed long term effects the drug could have had on her children.

Well said. The story makes no sense.

[ShiningInLuz]

SY have recently interviewed this witness.

"She observed that none of the elements of the group including the father and mother of the child was concerned with looking for her."

Silvia Maria Correia Ramos Batista

Date/Time: 2007/05/07 11H20

As she said earlier she was alerted about the disappearance of Madeleine between 22.30 and 23:00. She was at home and was informed of the event via a telephone call.

She drove immediately to the Ocean Club where she arrived a few minutes before elements of the GNR popped in.

After she arrived she went immediately to the apartment A5 where she found several people inside the apartment and outside of it. She entered in the flat but soon left without having spoken with anyone, because she was informed that elements of the GNR were in the principal reception. She went there to meet them.

When she came close to the elements of the GNR she found that behind her was Gerry, Madeleine's father, accompanied by another man whose identity she doesn't remember. Then Gerry kneeled down, hit the floor with both hands, positioning himself as if he were a praying Arab, and screamed twice of anger, what he said being impossible to understand. Then Gerry stand up and accompanied her (the witness) and the other man in the car of the GNR to the apartment A5.

She entered the apartment and asked for the passports of all elements of the family, and also photographs of the missing girl. She went with Gerry to the GNR car to hand over the requested documents. She mentions she did this, as well as other tasks, at the request of the GNR Commandant, because she could translate their questions and the missing girl's family's answers.

She remembers Gerry gave the Commandant of several photographs of the missing girl. They were postcard-like pictures, taking into account their size and shape and seemed all the same to her.

She understood also that since the very beginning either Gerry or the others insisted on stating that Madeleine had been snatched, all using the word "abducted" instead of missing, and all showing much interest in informing the press of the situation.

She also recalls entering in the room where Madeleine should be sleeping and remembers now that the door was closed. The room was dark. The blinds were down, some light entering through their holes. The windows were closed and the curtains slightly open. Gerry, who followed her and the elements of the GNR, said he did close the window because of the babies sleeping in the room, a fact she confirms.

Gerry said that when he discovered the disappearance of Madeleine he noticed that the window and the blinds were open and the curtains fluttering.

She recalls that the beds which were in the middle of the room and used by the babies were aligned and therefore found it strange that someone had taken Madeleine from the bed where she would be sleeping and had gone to the window because there was no space to pass.

She opened the wardrobes of that room in order to confirm that Madeleine wasn't eventually hiding there.

Then everyone left the room and someone shut the door. She remained for some time in the living room, near the GNR elements, Gerry and other elements of the group who got in and out and spoke on their cellular phones.

She observed that none of the elements of the group including the father and mother of the child was concerned with looking for her.

The mother was sitting on the bed of her room, the father was with her (the witness) and the elements of the GNR, and other elements of the group got in and out and spoke on the phone, anxious, in her opinion, to tell the press what happened.

She thought that the child's mother was devastated, the father was worried and also asked to notify the press and to get dogs to search.

About the others she only remembers that Fiona and her husband, Payne, were hysterical with the situation.

At a certain time, after the arrival of the PJ elements, the parents removed the twins from the beds in which they were still sleeping and took them to the first floor flat.

At the request of Kate she (the witness) to remove their puppets drink and a blanket that she took to the first floor flat. Only the mattresses remained.

She wanted to mention that around 3h00 Madeleine's parents asked for a priest to be present. They didn't explain why they wanted a priest but she (the witness) was amazed, because there were no indications that the little girl was dead and only in these circumstances is usually asked the presence of a priest.

At some point she translated the statement of one of the ladies who belonged to the group and that she describes as a brunette one. This lady said to the GNR elements, and she (the witness) translated, that she had seen a man on the road who might have carried a child.

This situation surprised her because she (the witness) was convinced that when the lady saw the man, the lady was in a place from where she had no angle of vision for the place where she saw the man. She doesn't know exactly what was the position of the lady when she saw the man, but she knows that the lady said she saw the man in the street in front of the Madeleine's bedroom window, walking in the direction of the street that then leads to the Baptista supermarket.

Asked about the way the members of the group were dressed up in that night, she only remembers that Fiona was wearing a green blouse, that Gerry was wearing a dark shirt and the husband of Fiona wearing clear pants, beige she thinks.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SILVIA_BATISTA.htm

Let me see.  Silvia Batista is saying that the Tannerman sighting was reported to the GNR, presumably before the PJ arrived.  And she has activity by element of the group on the phone, which certainly occurred before the PJ arrived.

If the part about Kate asking Silvia for the twins' cot contents, other than the mattresses, to be moved upstairs, is correct, then neither the PJ nor the McCanns did Madeleine a favour at that time.  I suppose I need to read the original statement.  I'm curious as to what got translated as 'their puppet's drink'.

[Mr Gray]

And what if mouth to mouth and chest compressions restart the heart ?

As to there being no warning signs I think the children being totally unresponsive would count as a warning sign, don't you ?

not necessarilyy....from a fathers with experience of extremely tired toddlers and a professional with experience of sedation. There was no suspicion of the twins being anaethetised.....the complication s mentioned are those of general anaaethesia...sedation is an extremely safe procedure

[Alfred R Jones]

Well said. The story makes no sense.

which part makes no sense?  Do you think Fiona Payne , a doctor, would have been content to let her friend's children's lives be in mortal danger if she seriously thought they seemed comatose?  The "story" makes no sense to you because you don't want it to, you want to make a mystery out of every detail to bolster your own suspicions.

[Alfred R Jones]

Apologies I will ask again the question I meant to ask. What if mouth to mouth and chest compressions don't restart a child's heart ?

In answer to your responsive to my second question, why was Kate and her husband 'very concerned' if the twins seemed to be hail and hearty. Why was their unresponsive state troubling her still years later if she had judged on the night they were okay ? We know that she thought they had been drugged. We also know, if innocent, that she didn't know with what. That being the case no matter how much she held them on her lap, felt their back or checked their pulse she could not be sure ( without proper tests in a hospital ) what short-term, or indeed long term effects the drug could have had on her children.

That's why she asked for her children to be tested. 

[G-Unit]

which part makes no sense?  Do you think Fiona Payne , a doctor, would have been content to let her friend's children's lives be in mortal danger if she seriously thought they seemed comatose?  The "story" makes no sense to you because you don't want it to, you want to make a mystery out of every detail to bolster your own suspicions.

It makes sense to you only because you want it to.

[faithlilly]

That's why she asked for her children to be tested.

Only months later. There is absolutely no independent evidence that Kate mentioned her concerns to any police officer the night of the disappearance. Indeed for Kate to have done that Silvia Batista would have had to have forgotten to mention that she translated Kste's concerns to the police.

Fiona, while still referring to Kate being anxious enough to check the twins breathing, would have to have forgotten to mention that Kate had also tried desperately to get the GNR/PJ to do something about her children's unresponsive state.

Gerry would have to have ignored his wife's pleas.

At least one, and perhaps more, Portuguese police officers, no doubt with children of their own, would have to have ignored the very grave concerns that a mother had for the safety of her children and further fail to report those concerns in his statements. Wouldn't that have been inhuman ?

The McCanns, against all we know about them, would have to have failed to complain loudly that their two remaining children's lives had been put in jeopardy by the heartless Portuguese police.

But most damning of all, when the McCanns did, eventually, broach the subject of sedation with the FLOs they made absolutely no mention of the twins unresponsive state on the night of Madeleine's disappearance. Further they asked for no tests to be done, tests which could have been useful in catching the abductor of their daughter.

Isn't that one to many coincidences for you ( what is it Kate said about coincidences ? ) because it is for me.

[Mr Gray]

sceptic posters here are confusing the dangers of General anaesthesia with those of sedation....chloroform is a general anaesthetic not a sedative and is extremely short acting...

[Alfred R Jones]

Only months later. There is absolutely no independent evidence that Kate mentioned her concerns to any police officer the night of the disappearance. Indeed for Kate to have done that Silvia Batista would have had to have forgotten to mention that she translated Kste's concerns to the police.

Fiona, while still referring to Kate being anxious enough to check the twins breathing, would have to have forgotten to mention that Kate had also tried desperately to get the GNR/PJ to do something about her children's unresponsive state.

Gerry would have to have ignored his wife's pleas.

At least one, and perhaps more, Portuguese police officers, no doubt with children of their own, would have to have ignored the very grave concerns that a mother had for the safety of her children and further fail to report those concerns in his statements. Wouldn't that have been inhuman ?

The McCanns, against all we know about them, would have to have failed to complain loudly that their two remaining children's lives had been put in jeopardy by the heartless Portuguese police.

But most damning of all, when the McCanns did, eventually, broach the subject of sedation with the FLOs they made absolutely no mention of the twins unresponsive state on the night of Madeleine's disappearance. Further they asked for no tests to be done, tests which could have been useful in catching the abductor of their daughter.

Isn't that one to many coincidences for you ( what is it Kate said about coincidences ? ) because it is for me.

Could I have a cite for Kate claiming that she begged and pleaded with the police to have her children tested that night?  We'll then proceed from there...