Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?

[G-Unit]

It's an easy question which most parents would have no problem in answering. You have three children and one has disappeared from your apartment during your absence. The other two don't wake up despite lots of noise and disturbance. You suspect they could have been drugged. Do you a) Just keep checking they're breathing  b) Attempt to wake them to assess their condition c) Call an ambulance just in case.

Personally I would start with b) and if there was no response I would go straight to c). Even if I was an anaesthetist because in work they are dealing with sedation that they have administered so they know the dosage and what substances have been given. The people involved here had no idea what these children might have been given and it could have been deadly. Criminals don't worry too much about getting the dosage correct I would think.

[Mr Gray]

It's an easy question which most parents would have no problem in answering. You have three children and one has disappeared from your apartment during your absence. The other two don't wake up despite lots of noise and disturbance. You suspect they could have been drugged. Do you a) Just keep checking they're breathing  b) Attempt to wake them to assess their condition c) Call an ambulance just in case.

Personally I would start with b) and if there was no response I would go straight to c). Even if I was an anaesthetist because in work they are dealing with sedation that they have administered so they know the dosage and what substances have been given. The people involved here had no idea what these children might have been given and it could have been deadly. Criminals don't worry too much about getting the dosage correct I would think.

I think its significant you think you know more than kate who was there at the time and has worked as anaethetist

[slartibartfast]

1485
 'Did the twins wake up at all''
 
 Reply
 'They didn't. They didn't'.
 
 1485
 'In the aftermath'
 
 Reply
 'No, and that was the other thing, she (Kate) kept going into the twins, she kept putting her hands on the twins to check they were breathing, she was very much concerned in checking that they were okay. But they were okay, I mean, they were fine, they didn't, they were asleep, but at the time it did seem weird, I remember thinking, you know, when the Police came they turned the lights on, there was loads of noise, obviously from the moment Kate discovered that Madeleine was gone, the screaming and the shouting and there was a lot of noise and they, they didn't, you know, so much as blink'.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

10/04/08 - a year after the event, is this an eye witness account or the memory filling in gaps after discussions?

[G-Unit]

I think its significant you think you know more than kate who was there at the time and has worked as anaethetist

It's not rocket science. Fiona was concerned and she was still working as an anaethetist. Kate's opinion was that the twins had been sedated; her opinion, not mine. Even so, she did nothing of medical significance to check if they were OK. Checking that a child is still breathing may be adequate if you yourself anaethetised them in a hospital setting because you know what they've had and it's probable effects. It isn't enough in a situation of ignorance. I wouldn't be entirely satisfied in the same circumstances if I called a doctor to a child who was sleeping against the odds and they merely checked their backs for signs of breathing. Very professional.

[Benice]

Amaral admitted the PJ should have requested tests and that it was THEIR mistake not to do so.    However in the absence of any confirmation that no drugs had been used - he was then able to make nasty insinuations against the McCanns (Kate in particular)  implying that all of the children (including Madeleine) had been drugged  - as follows:

Quote from his book.

While the grandfather stated on television that Kate gave Calpol to the children to get them to sleep, several months have gone by since May 3rd. Kate, who is a doctor, must be aware that the time for obtaining convincing results has largely passed.

It is known that the sudden withdrawal of sedatives can cause sleep problems. If Kate's journal is to be believed, the twins suffered from problems of that nature during the days following their sister's disappearance.
Unquote


IOW :
1. He claims the children were given Calpol to make them sleep.

2. He insinuates that Kate deliberately waited for months until she knew the results of testing would not be 'convincing' before raising her concerns.

3. He insinuates that the twins showed signs of sudden sedative withdrawal.
--------------------

It's inexplicable to me that some people can read such lies and distortions of the facts such as those above (which is only one small example from his libellous book) and actually wonder why the McCanns decided to sue him.   


 

[Mr Gray]

It's not rocket science. Fiona was concerned and she was still working as an anaethetist. Kate's opinion was that the twins had been sedated; her opinion, not mine. Even so, she did nothing of medical significance to check if they were OK. Checking that a child is still breathing may be adequate if you yourself anaethetised them in a hospital setting because you know what they've had and it's probable effects. It isn't enough in a situation of ignorance. I wouldn't be entirely satisfied in the same circumstances if I called a doctor to a child who was sleeping against the odds and they merely checked their backs for signs of breathing. Very professional.

A hand on a childs back can tell you much more than if the child is breathing....you can assess rate...depth..regularity and more.. which would indicate sedation rather than sleep...the fact you do not realise tis shows you are not qualified to judge.....your opinions are worthless

[stephen25000]

A hand on a childs back can tell you much more than if the child is breathing....you can assess rate...depth..regularity and more.. which would indicate sedation rather than sleep...the fact you do not realise tis shows you are not qualified to judge.....your opinions are worthless

Your claims do not add up.

The mccanns claimed the children could have been sedated.

Nothing was done about it.

However, a few months later, when it was irrelevant, meaningless 'tests' were carried out.

[Mr Gray]

Your claims do not add up.

The mccanns claimed the children could have been sedated.

Nothing was done about it.

However, a few months later, when it was irrelevant, meaningless 'tests' were carried out.

They don't add up to you because you don't understand
What is the treatment for sedation

[stephen25000]

They don't add up to you because you don't understand
What is the treatment for sedation

irrelevant.

The mccanns claimed the children had been sedated.

There is no escaping from that.

Both the mccanns and the PJ hold responsibility for not carrying out tests.

END OF.

[Mr Gray]

irrelevant.

The mccanns claimed the children had been sedated.

There is no escaping from that.

Both the mccanns and the PJ hold responsibility for not carrying out tests.

END OF.

I actually agree in hindsight a test would have been a good idea

[jassi]

It certainly would have been one issue resolved and if sedation had been demonstrated, identification of the drug used might have helped in narrowing down the type of person with access to that drug.
Of course, if it were something commonly available over the counter in Portugal, that in itself  might not have been of great help.

[Carana]

Picking up on this bit:

 "...The National Institute of Forensic Medicine let us know that before proceeding with this screening, they would need to know what type of sedative they were looking for. There are hundreds of them on the market."

Aside from the fact that I have never found any correspondence in the files concerning this, I have trouble believing that such a reputable forensic institute would say such a thing.

They could test for traces of chemical compounds that could have a sedative effect without having to know the particular type in advance, couldn't they?

That would seem akin to a forensic pathologist telling the police that they need to know what someone died of before performing an autopsy...

[faithlilly]

So no visible signs that the twins were in respiratory failure, as per 2 anaesthetists.

Misty please tell me that even you don't believe that an anaesthetist can tell how much sedation an individual has been given and the effect it is having on their body just by looking at them ?

[faithlilly]

Amaral admitted the PJ should have requested tests and that it was THEIR mistake not to do so.    However in the absence of any confirmation that no drugs had been used - he was then able to make nasty insinuations against the McCanns (Kate in particular)  implying that all of the children (including Madeleine) had been drugged  - as follows:

Quote from his book.

While the grandfather stated on television that Kate gave Calpol to the children to get them to sleep, several months have gone by since May 3rd. Kate, who is a doctor, must be aware that the time for obtaining convincing results has largely passed.

It is known that the sudden withdrawal of sedatives can cause sleep problems. If Kate's journal is to be believed, the twins suffered from problems of that nature during the days following their sister's disappearance.
Unquote


IOW :
1. He claims the children were given Calpol to make them sleep.

2. He insinuates that Kate deliberately waited for months until she knew the results of testing would not be 'convincing' before raising her concerns.

3. He insinuates that the twins showed signs of sudden sedative withdrawal.
--------------------

It's inexplicable to me that some people can read such lies and distortions of the facts such as those above (which is only one small example from his libellous book) and actually wonder why the McCanns decided to sue him.

Please keep on topic Benice. This is not about suing Amaral but whether the twins should have been tested for drugs. I believe the PJ did make a very big mistake not having the twins tested for sedation but I think a larger dereliction of duty was perpetrated by her parents who, although they admitted to, on the night, having concerns about the comatose state of their remaining children did absolutely nothing to have them medically checked.

[G-Unit]

A hand on a childs back can tell you much more than if the child is breathing....you can assess rate...depth..regularity and more.. which would indicate sedation rather than sleep...the fact you do not realise tis shows you are not qualified to judge.....your opinions are worthless

So Kate McCann assessed the rate, depth, regularity and more and concluded that the twins were likely to have been sedated. She then did....................nothing, zero, nil. Unacceptable.