Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?

[Mr Gray]

You right Slarti. I'm sure it does occasionally happen but I have been interested in miscarriages of justice since a teenager and I have yet to see one innocent person not willing to answer the police questions put to them.

How did you manage to miss the Colin Stagg case....your interest must have been very superficial. We have no way of knowing how many innocent poeple refuse to answer questions. I would say it happens when the accused feels he is being set up by the police...which fortunately I would think is not often.

to assume that failure to answer questions is a sign of guilt is wild speculation

[Alfred R Jones]

How did you manage to miss the Colin Stagg case....your interest must have been very superficial. We have no way of knowing how many innocent poeple refuse to answer questions. I would say it happens when the accused feels he is being set up by the police...which fortunately I would think is not often.

to assume that failure to answer questions is a sign of guilt is wild speculation

Faithlily also obviously didn't watch the recent C4 documentary "The Murder Detectives" in which the police picked up a key suspect who answered "no comment" to every question put to him, and was later proven to have had no part in the murder whatsoever. 

[Brietta]

No, just common sense. If A poster says they have never seen something it should be taken as a fact unless you are calling the poster a liar. However, never having seen something does not mean it couldn't have happened.

Obviously it is fine for some elite posters to post whatever as long as it is protected by "I have never seen ... " but some who are not elite at all have their posts censored when using the same prefix but who are in the position of being able to provide cites to back up the statement.

Fair enough.

But as all the posts on the subject are decidedly off topic anyway... including your intervention ... why is mine the only one you have moderated?

Rhetorical question.

[Brietta]

I'm not too sure what could be classed as the Policia Judiciaria's biggest mistake (there are just so many to choose from) in the investigation into Madeleine McCann's disappearance ... not testing the twins has been acknowledged as one by the case co-ordinator. Biggest? perhaps or perhaps not.

I think one which could have been a catastrophic error ... not that we will ever know now ... may very well have been the refusal by omission of the opportunity offered to the PJ by the Swiss police of the opportunity to forensically inspect Urs Hans Von Aesch's vehicle for traces of Madeleine.

The Swiss obviously thought that all avenues of investigation remained open when the offer was made.

Unfortunately it happened at a time when the Portuguese police had suspects in their sights, having totally misinterpreted the forensics, and were not looking for any one else.

I would say that whole episode ranks not only as the biggest mistake made but as potentially one of the more disastrous ones. 

[ferryman]

I'm not too sure what could be classed as the Policia Judiciaria's biggest mistake (there are just so many to choose from) in the investigation into Madeleine McCann's disappearance ... not testing the twins has been acknowledged as one by the case co-ordinator. Biggest? perhaps or perhaps not.

I think one which could have been a catastrophic error ... not that we will ever know now ... may very well have been the refusal by omission of the opportunity offered to the PJ by the Swiss police of the opportunity to forensically inspect Urs Hans Von Aesch's vehicle for traces of Madeleine.

The Swiss obviously thought that all avenues of investigation remained open when the offer was made.

Unfortunately it happened at a time when the Portuguese police had suspects in their sights, having totally misinterpreted the forensics, and were not looking for any one else.

I would say that whole episode ranks not only as the biggest mistake made but as potentially one of the more disastrous ones.

Excellent point.

We'll just never know.

[G-Unit]

I'm not too sure what could be classed as the Policia Judiciaria's biggest mistake (there are just so many to choose from) in the investigation into Madeleine McCann's disappearance ... not testing the twins has been acknowledged as one by the case co-ordinator. Biggest? perhaps or perhaps not.

I think one which could have been a catastrophic error ... not that we will ever know now ... may very well have been the refusal by omission of the opportunity offered to the PJ by the Swiss police of the opportunity to forensically inspect Urs Hans Von Aesch's vehicle for traces of Madeleine.

The Swiss obviously thought that all avenues of investigation remained open when the offer was made.

Unfortunately it happened at a time when the Portuguese police had suspects in their sights, having totally misinterpreted the forensics, and were not looking for any one else.

I would say that whole episode ranks not only as the biggest mistake made but as potentially one of the more disastrous ones.

I can't find any proof that this man was in Portugal, but am happy to be corrected. Amaral mentions testing the twins in hindsight but there's no proof in the files that the PJ even considered it at the time.

[Alice Purjorick]

"On the 7 May 2013 it was reported that Scotland Yard officers, as part on their ongoing review, had travelled to St Gallen to investigate possible links between the two crimes. Hanspeter Krüsi, spokesman for the Swiss police, stated, that after the investigation no links could be established between the two cases, and this is what was communicated to Scotland Yard".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urs_Hans_von_Aesch

[Brietta]

"On the 7 May 2013 it was reported that Scotland Yard officers, as part on their ongoing review, had travelled to St Gallen to investigate possible links between the two crimes. Hanspeter Krüsi, spokesman for the Swiss police, stated, that after the investigation no links could be established between the two cases, and this is what was communicated to Scotland Yard".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urs_Hans_von_Aesch

The Scotland Yard review deemed it pertinent to travel to Switzerland in 2013 as part of the process of following up the failure to eliminate Urs Hans Von Aesch ... which we now know was just one of the many lines of inquiry neglected by the original investigation in 2007.

"No links could be established" is not definitive of there being no link.

By issuing their invitation in 2007 the Swiss police obviously thought it was something worth investigating to be ruled in or ruled out.

The Policia Judiciaria ignored the opportunity to test Von Aesch's vehicle in 2007 at the invitation of the Swiss because they had other fish to fry. 

The PJ ignored urgent emails giving them the opportunity to do so prior to the vehicle being dismantled for the continuation of the Swiss police's own investigative purposes.

Once the vehicle was dismantled for the Swiss purposes it ensured that had there been any trace in 2007 ... it vanished in 2007 with the dismantling of the vehicle ... there is no way it would still be available to SY investigators or anyone else in 2013.

So in my opinion it still ranks as a huge and unnecessary failure ... coming some way up the league table from the failure to test the twins.

[Alice Purjorick]

The Scotland Yard review deemed it pertinent to travel to Switzerland in 2013 as part of the process of following up the failure to eliminate Urs Hans Von Aesch ... which we now know was just one of the many lines of inquiry neglected by the original investigation in 2007.

"No links could be established" is not definitive of there being no link.

By issuing their invitation in 2007 the Swiss police obviously thought it was something worth investigating to be ruled in or ruled out.

The Policia Judiciaria ignored the opportunity to test Von Aesch's vehicle in 2007 at the invitation of the Swiss because they had other fish to fry. 

The PJ ignored urgent emails giving them the opportunity to do so prior to the vehicle being dismantled for the continuation of the Swiss police's own investigative purposes.

Once the vehicle was dismantled for the Swiss purposes it ensured that had there been any trace in 2007 ... it vanished in 2007 with the dismantling of the vehicle ... there is no way it would still be available to SY investigators or anyone else in 2013.

So in my opinion it still ranks as a huge and unnecessary failure ... coming some way up the league table from the failure to test the twins.

There would appear to be no corroboration that Herr  Von Aesch was ever in Portugal or Luz.
Do you have any detail which confirms that he was indeed in Luz at the appropriate time ?

[slartibartfast]

The Scotland Yard review deemed it pertinent to travel to Switzerland in 2013 as part of the process of following up the failure to eliminate Urs Hans Von Aesch ... which we now know was just one of the many lines of inquiry neglected by the original investigation in 2007.

"No links could be established" is not definitive of there being no link.

By issuing their invitation in 2007 the Swiss police obviously thought it was something worth investigating to be ruled in or ruled out.

The Policia Judiciaria ignored the opportunity to test Von Aesch's vehicle in 2007 at the invitation of the Swiss because they had other fish to fry. 

The PJ ignored urgent emails giving them the opportunity to do so prior to the vehicle being dismantled for the continuation of the Swiss police's own investigative purposes.

Once the vehicle was dismantled for the Swiss purposes it ensured that had there been any trace in 2007 ... it vanished in 2007 with the dismantling of the vehicle ... there is no way it would still be available to SY investigators or anyone else in 2013.

So in my opinion it still ranks as a huge and unnecessary failure ... coming some way up the league table from the failure to test the twins.

So two major police forces after the Portuguese eliminate someone from their enquiries and it still isn't enough. I think you are clutching at straws.

[faithlilly]

There would appear to be no corroboration that Herr  Von Aesch was ever in Portugal or Luz.
Do you have any detail which confirms that he was indeed in Luz at the appropriate time ?

Of course she doesn't.

You really do have to wonder why Brietta is bringing this up now ?

[mercury]

@ Brietta
The swiss man was 67 years old...if you are almost certain Tanner was a witness as you have stated in the past, the two descriptions do not match in the slightest...bearded grey haired old man vs youngish man with jet black long hair clean shaven

Spurious sightngs of children who defintely were not Madeleine Mccann and or adults they were with / "suspicious" men were followed up...if there was any connection whatsoever I am sure it will have been investigated by the swiss or pj or both

[Brietta]

@ Brietta
The swiss man was 67 years old...if you are almost certain Tanner was a witness as you have stated in the past, the two descriptions do not match in the slightest...bearded grey haired old man vs youngish man with jet black long hair clean shaven

Spurious sightngs of children who defintely were not Madeleine Mccann and or adults they were with / "suspicious" men were followed up...if there was any connection whatsoever I am sure it will have been investigated by the swiss or pj or both

It was not a Swiss case so the Swiss did not follow it up.

However because of the striking resemblance and the nearness in age of Ylenia and Madeleine combined with information that he may well have been in the Algarve at the time of Madeleine's disappearance ... the Swiss were concerned enough to send information to Interpol asking them to alert the Portuguese to Urs Hans Von Aesch.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/C_ROGATORIA_1.htm   Pages  58 - 69

58-Email regarding Swiss abduction by Urs Hans Von Aesch
59 to 60-Interpol documentation re Urs Hans Von Aesch
61-69 Interpol letter and documents notifying of Urs Hans Von Aesch's suicide



Von Aesch's death also raises questions about the man suffering gunshot wounds who was shot in the same woods where Von Aesch's body was found and where Ylenia was buried.

Wonder who he was and what his locus may have been ... he seems to have dropped off the radar but who knows, he could have been a man who would have been worth the Portuguese investigators' interest.

I'm puzzled by him and I'm not a detective ... one would have supposed real detectives might have thought him worth a question or two.

**Snip
Police also believe another man, who was earlier gunned down by Von Aesch, could hold the key to solving the mystery.

Detectives are keeping a vigil by the hospital bed of the shot man, hoping he was about to blow the whistle on the child abductor before he was gunned down.

Through Interpol, Swiss police informed colleagues in Spain and Portugal after learning that Von Aesch lived near Alicante and was also on holiday in the Algarve when Madeleine disappeared.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-473543/Madeleine-Police-parents-picture-child-snatcher-suspect-killed-himself.html#ixzz3xYNktzTx

[Brietta]

So two major police forces after the Portuguese eliminate someone from their enquiries and it still isn't enough. I think you are clutching at straws.

You have totally failed to grasp that the Portuguese did not eliminate Von Aesch from their inquiries for the simple reason they did not bother with him as they apparently thought they had the case well and truly stitched up without the need to go outside the family.

It all happened after the visit of the dogs and the total misinterpretation of all that entailed.

The PJ were notified of Von Aesch's suicide in August and the urgent email about Von Aesch's vehicle is dated three days before the Drs McCann were declared arguidos in the disappearance of their daughter.

That is the vehicle which the PJ were being informed was going to be dismantled ... after dismantling if it had ever contained any evidence relating to Madeleine McCann that would be consigned to the dustbin of history even more effectively than Ricardo Paiva's "irrelevant" files were.

The PJ were apparently not in the game of diversifying from investigating Madeleine's parents to check out a dead man in Switzerland ... so don't run away with the idea they investigated and eliminated him in 2007.

They did not.

[Brietta]

So two major police forces after the Portuguese eliminate someone from their enquiries and it still isn't enough. I think you are clutching at straws.

I should have added to my previous post that no-one investigated and eliminated this man from the Madeleine McCann investigation.

The Portuguese did not despite the Swiss contact via Interpol ~ for the reasons I have outlined.

The Swiss did not ... Madeleine's case was not in their jurisdiction.

Scotland Yard did not ... it was also out with their jurisdiction until they were tasked with reviewing Madeleine's case.

So please refrain from attempting to put me down with suggestions such as you think I am "clutching at straws".

I have made absolutely no suggestion that this man is connected to Madeleine's disappearance.

I am in accord with the Swiss police and Interpol who thought he should be investigated ... perhaps your "clutching at straws" jibe would be better directed at them.