Author Topic: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?  (Read 218622 times)

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Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #765 on: January 18, 2016, 04:29:57 PM »
Perhaps the PJ are  cleverer than some on here are willing to accept.
Yes, perhaps they have supernatural powers that allow them to psychically decide whether or not someone is worth investigating.

Offline jassi

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #766 on: January 18, 2016, 04:32:50 PM »
You don't need supernatural powers, just common sense.
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #767 on: January 18, 2016, 04:38:52 PM »
You don't need supernatural powers, just common sense.
OK - explain the common sense process the PJ may have used when contacted by their Swiss counterparts concerning Von Aesch.

Offline slartibartfast

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #768 on: January 18, 2016, 04:39:58 PM »
How are you defining "full knowledge"?  Are we no longer allowed to voice opinions based on known facts?  Brietta has voiced a perfectly legitimate observation - the fact that the PJ declined to investigate further a man who abducted a child as flagged by the Swiss police - on what basis did they decline to carry out further investigations?  How did they know before carrying out any investigation that this man was not involved?

How do we know they didn't?
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline jassi

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #769 on: January 18, 2016, 04:41:18 PM »
How do I know, but as SY findings apparently confirmed the initial PJ opinion, they must have them in abundance.
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #770 on: January 18, 2016, 05:08:39 PM »
The point you appear to be overlooking is that until a competent investigation is carried out which either rules in or rules out a suspect we have no idea who is or who is not "linked" to Madeleine's case.

The Drs McCann and their friends have been entirely ruled out as suspects both by the Portuguese in 2008 and the present dual investigations.
That's how it works ... once someone has been ruled out ... ie "cleared" it is time to progress to the next step.

That means that there is someone out there who knows what happened to Madeleine and it is not her parents.

One of the biggest mistakes of the Amaral investigation was to ignore that possibility ... a mistake you seem determined to perpetuate although your mistakes mean nothing.

Amaral's mistakes are catastrophic.                         

You clearly don't understand how the police work in tricky cases but don't let that bother you.

Police in Portugal acknowledge for the first time that, in light of new evidence, Madeleine may be dead. Chief Inspector Sousa adds that Mr and Mrs McCann are not being considered as suspects following newspaper speculation that they were under suspicion.
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #771 on: January 18, 2016, 05:13:17 PM »
I left the in-depth discussion about whether or not the magnitude of the failure to check on the twins was the biggest mistake made by the Policia Judiciaria ... when it became patently obvious that it most certainly was not.

I find it truly surprising however that posters, some of whom may have spent the last nine years asking questions about Madeleine's case have no curiosity regarding Von Aesch or the circumstances in which his body was found and later Ylenia's body was found.
The direct connection to Madeleine's case is that the Swiss police thought it relevant enough to share the information and from that starting point other avenues of investigation might have been suggested.

See ... http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3143.0  for more information.  Post #3 from an article written in 2007 indicates a police statement to the effect he had been in the Algarve at the time of Madeleine's disappearance.

So my reading skills are fine, thank you for your concern, as is my comprehension.  I am certainly curious about the circumstances of Von Aesch's demise in the forest and the Swiss contact with the Portuguese as a result.

If I were a poster justifying my eagerness to question all things McCann ... this would appear to be near virgin territory of unasked questions and by definition unanswered questions.

That it doesn't point in the preferred direction is just one of those things which happens when investigators have an open mind and follow evidence ... pity there was such a marked prejudice against checking it out at the time.
Apart from one non-attributed line in a Wiki article, I can see no real reference that places him in or around Luz at the time the McCanns were here.

There's a 'holiday in the Algarve' reference, but bear in mind the Algarve is not pocket handkerchief size.

If he was in the Algarve, or even in Luz, the next challenge would be how he managed to discover Madeleine and track her to apartment 5A.  The idea that he parked a distinctive white car with Spanish number plates (which seem to have become German plates a few months later in Switzerland) outside 5A for days on end strikes me as very hard to swallow.  Since he didn't have a key to 5A, he would then have to observe the McCanns leaving the children alone in the evening and the McCanns using the patio door, unless he was hoping they would also leave a window open AND he had tested the shutters.

I realise you are not actually discussing the case, merely raising it as an unexplored avenue.  But unless I have missed something, we don't know whether it was explored or not.  Any investigation of someone believed to have kidnapped, raped and murdered a young girl should have gone in the sex offenders section of the PJ Files, and these were not released to the general public. 

Operation Grange has access to those files, but even IF the PJ ruled him out in the first investigation, surely this line of enquiry should be rechecked?  It appears this has been done.  It appears the man has been ruled out of the Madeleine case.  Since I'm not privy to how this was achieved, I don't wish to speculate.  I can see actions being required in Portugal if OG thought him anywhere near Luz, such as checking his DNA against the samples that remain unidentified.  I therefore tend to the opinion they have something that actually places him elsewhere at the time, but as I say, the evidence to support this is little.

If everything is boiled down, what is left is another 'sex offender in Luz' story that appears to have been investigated and discounted by OG.
What's up, old man?

Offline Eleanor

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #772 on: January 18, 2016, 05:16:52 PM »

No Insults, please.  And don't think I can't spot a half hearted attempt to cover them up.

Offline slartibartfast

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #773 on: January 18, 2016, 05:17:59 PM »
Apart from one non-attributed line in a Wiki article, I can see no real reference that places him in or around Luz at the time the McCanns were here.

There's a 'holiday in the Algarve' reference, but bear in mind the Algarve is not pocket handkerchief size.

If he was in the Algarve, or even in Luz, the next challenge would be how he managed to discover Madeleine and track her to apartment 5A.  The idea that he parked a distinctive white car with Spanish number plates (which seem to have become German plates a few months later in Switzerland) outside 5A for days on end strikes me as very hard to swallow.  Since he didn't have a key to 5A, he would then have to observe the McCanns leaving the children alone in the evening and the McCanns using the patio door, unless he was hoping they would also leave a window open AND he had tested the shutters.

I realise you are not actually discussing the case, merely raising it as an unexplored avenue.  But unless I have missed something, we don't know whether it was explored or not.  Any investigation of someone believed to have kidnapped, raped and murdered a young girl should have gone in the sex offenders section of the PJ Files, and these were not released to the general public. 

Operation Grange has access to those files, but even IF the PJ ruled him out in the first investigation, surely this line of enquiry should be rechecked?  It appears this has been done.  It appears the man has been ruled out of the Madeleine case.  Since I'm not privy to how this was achieved, I don't wish to speculate.  I can see actions being required in Portugal if OG thought him anywhere near Luz, such as checking his DNA against the samples that remain unidentified.  I therefore tend to the opinion they have something that actually places him elsewhere at the time, but as I say, the evidence to support this is little.

If everything is boiled down, what is left is another 'sex offender in Luz' story that appears to have been investigated and discounted by OG.

Good post.
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline Brietta

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #774 on: January 18, 2016, 05:40:59 PM »
I don't, I understand that some people on here don't like it when their arguments are turned against them.

In what way have you turned this particular 'argument' against me?

If a person is not investigated at the time despite an invitation from their peers in another jurisdiction to the investigating authority to do so ... I consider it to be a dereliction of duty.

That the vehicle which centred in the invitation was dismantled means that had there been evidence in Switzerland connecting Von Aesch to Madeleine it went when that vehicle was dismantled in early September 2007.
Hardly surprising that the Operation Grange visit to Switzerland years later was unfruitful.

Had Von Aesch been in the Algarve as suggested when Madeleine went missing ... that was certainly well worth investigating, particularly who his associates may have been.

Had there been no connection there would have been no problem with that ... not everyone investigated has a connection to the crime ... policing would be a bit of a dawdle were that so.

In my book the failure to take up the Swiss invitation was certainly a bigger error than failing to test the twins; particularly as it evidences a state of mind prevalent among the investigators.


edited to correct spelling error
« Last Edit: January 18, 2016, 07:02:16 PM by Brietta »
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #775 on: January 18, 2016, 06:11:29 PM »
How do we know they didn't?
I posed 4 questions to you in my post.  You have replied with one question, as above.  Would you consider replying with more than one curt counter question, or is that not possible?

Offline slartibartfast

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #776 on: January 18, 2016, 06:13:42 PM »
I posed 4 questions to you in my post.  You have replied with one question, as above.  Would you consider replying with more than one curt counter question, or is that not possible?

It answered 3 of them and the other was self evident.
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #777 on: January 18, 2016, 06:17:43 PM »
It answered 3 of them and the other was self evident.
Rubbish. It addressed one of my questions but you chose to ignore the others.  But as I always have the courtesy to answer questions put to me then the answer to yours is - we know they didn't because the Met decided to follow up the Von Aesch connection when they took over the investigation.  If the PJ had properly investigated him at the time and found there was no likely connection then the obviously would not have wasted time on him again.

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #778 on: January 18, 2016, 06:19:22 PM »
In what way have you turned this particular 'argument' against me?

If a person is not investigated at the time despite an invitation from their peers in another jurisdiction to the investigating authority to do so ... I consider it to be a dereliction of duty.

That the vehicle which centred in the invitation was dismantled means that had there been evidence in Switzerland connecting Von Aersch to Madeleine it went when that vehicle was dismantled in early September 2007.
Hardly surprising that the Operation Grange visit to Switzerland years later was unfruitful.

Had Von Aersch been in the Algarve as suggested when Madeleine went missing ... that was certainly well worth investigating, particularly who his associates may have been.

Had there been no connection there would have been no problem with that ... not everyone investigated has a connection to the crime ... policing would be a bit of a dawdle were that so.

In my book the failure to take up the Swiss invitation was certainly a bigger error than failing to test the twins; particularly as it evidences a state of mind prevalent among the investigators.

Based on the email you posted a while back and checking interesting things like deaths we appear to have a chronology of:
31st July 2007 von Aesch tops himself.
21st August 2007 the Swiss Police ask the PJ if they want a look see at his motor. The motor that is not the geezer.
3rd September 2007 the Swiss Police give the PJ the hurry up for a reply referring again to the motor.
Even had the PJ got themselves kitted up right on the drop of the first communication they would have needed to have been a bit bleedin' nippy to get to Berne or wherever im Schweiz 21days before they started out just so they could interview a guy who the Swiss hadn't asked them to interview anyway. Probably because the Swiss knew he was dead.
I must be missing something.
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #779 on: January 18, 2016, 06:21:32 PM »
Based on the email you posted a while back and checking interesting things like deaths we appear to have a chronology of:
31st July 2007 von Aesch tops himself.
21st August 2007 the Swiss Police ask the PJ if they want a look see at his motor. The motor that is not the geezer.
3rd September 2007 the Swiss Police give the PJ the hurry up for a reply referring again to the motor.
Even had the PJ got themselves kitted up right on the drop of the first communication they would have needed to have been a bit bleedin' nippy to get to Berne or wherever im Schweiz 21days before they started out just so they could interview a guy who the Swiss hadn't asked them to interview anyway. Probably because the Swiss knew he was dead.
I must be missing something.
Quite.