Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?

[G-Unit]

You sound like a PJ apologist.

Just a realist. Some on here bang on about empathy but have none for those GNR men who left their homes and searched all night for a child. They have none for the PJ who worked non-stop, sleeping at the police station. They agree with the media who attacked the Portuguese police constantly. Anyone would think all other police forces
were perfect and they are not.

[Alfred R Jones]

Just a realist. Some on here bang on about empathy but have none for those GNR men who left their homes and searched all night for a child. They have none for the PJ who worked non-stop, sleeping at the police station. They agree with the media who attacked the Portuguese police constantly. Anyone would think all other police forces
were perfect and they are not.

defending shoddy police work because you feel sorry for the poor overworked policemen is indeed very empathetic of you.  Shame that's where your empathy in this case stops.  Never mind the parents and family of the child who has vanished...

[stephen25000]

defending shoddy police work because you feel sorry for the poor overworked policemen is indeed very empathetic of you.  Shame that's where your empathy in this case stops.  Never mind the parents and family of the child who has vanished...

The propaganda machine roles out yet again.

i.e. blame the PJ and certain officers, there were a lot more, who suspected the mccanns.

Why not blame the parents who initiated events in this case ?

Is that too much to ask Alfred ?

[carlymichelle]

The propaganda machine roles out yet again.

i.e. blame the PJ and certain officers, there were a lot more, who suspected the mccanns.

Why not blame the parents who initiated events in this case ?

Is that too much to ask Alfred ?

if  the mcanns had been decent parents maddie would be alive and well  now

[G-Unit]

defending shoddy police work because you feel sorry for the poor overworked policemen is indeed very empathetic of you.  Shame that's where your empathy in this case stops.  Never mind the parents and family of the child who has vanished...

We have had a unique opportunity to see what the police did in this case. We can see the hundreds of 'sightings', statements and diligences. Whether their work was 'shoddy' is a matter of opinion; the evasiveness of the parents is undeniable.

This thread is about possible sedation of the twins which caused the parents to be 'very concerned'. Although no evidence that they expressed their concern can be found it is the PJ who are accused of being at fault for not ordering blood tests. Just one example of the denigration of a police force for failing to do something despite no documented reason to do so being found. 

[Alfred R Jones]

We have had a unique opportunity to see what the police did in this case. We can see the hundreds of 'sightings', statements and diligences. Whether their work was 'shoddy' is a matter of opinion; the evasiveness of the parents is undeniable.

This thread is about possible sedation of the twins which caused the parents to be 'very concerned'. Although no evidence that they expressed their concern can be found it is the PJ who are accused of being at fault for not ordering blood tests. Just one example of the denigration of a police force for failing to do something despite no documented reason to do so being found.

So you think the police should only have acted on orders from the parents do you?  Interesting...

[G-Unit]

So you think the police should only have acted on orders from the parents do you?  Interesting...

I don't recall saying that. I can find no evidence that the PJ were concerned about the twins on 3rd May. I think the parents, whose concern is documented, should have acted to ensure their remaining children were OK. If you read back on the thread my opinions are clearly laid out.

[Alice Purjorick]

You're simply making stuff in an attempt to make McCann supporter look foolish.  Brietta never implied that the Swiss extended an invitation to the PJ to interview a dead man.  This is what she wrote:

"If a person is not investigated at the time despite an invitation from their peers in another jurisdiction to the investigating authority to do so ... I consider it to be a dereliction of duty".

The Swiss Police, according to the emails posted, asked the PJ if they wished to look at the vehicle. There is no reference by the Swiss asking the PJ to investigate the man.

[Alfred R Jones]

I don't recall saying that. I can find no evidence that the PJ were concerned about the twins on 3rd May. I think the parents, whose concern is documented, should have acted to ensure their remaining children were OK. If you read back on the thread my opinions are clearly laid out.

In my opinion the parents did act in such a way as to ensure that their remaining children were OK.  If I recall correctly wasn't the fact that the twins were sleeping deeply at the time of the alerts noted by not just the parents but members of the GNR / PJ as well?  Perhaps I am mistaken...

[G-Unit]

In my opinion the parents did act in such a way as to ensure that their remaining children were OK.  If I recall correctly wasn't the fact that the twins were sleeping deeply at the time of the alerts noted by not just the parents but members of the GNR / PJ as well?  Perhaps I am mistaken...

Your opinion of 'responsible parenting' and mine, do, of course differ. Had my children been as unresponsive as the twins I certainly would have done more than Kate McCann did. Later in the process, when asked, the police did say it was strange but as they didn't know the children's sleep habits they couldn't be expected to become alarmed at the time. The parents, however, who did know the twin's sleeping habits, were 'very concerned' but did nothing.
 

[Brietta]

The Swiss Police, according to the emails posted, asked the PJ if they wished to look at the vehicle. There is no reference by the Swiss asking the PJ to investigate the man.

One just accepts that certain events happen sequentially and logically.

For example ... Jane Tanner saw a man carrying a child and reported the sighting as soon as she could.  I assumed that the later Smith sighting was similarly reported immediately ... it came as a bit of a shock to realise that it was not reported to police until a fortnight later.

As far as Von Aesch was concerned my assumption was ... he kidnapped child ... killed child ... committed suicide ... police find child's body.  I was surprised that was not precisely what happened.

I did not know there had been two shootings.  That of Von Aesch and that of a younger unidentified man.  The police did not find Ylenia's body ... she was eventually found by a private individual because her shallow grave had been disturbed by animals.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that the Swiss police asked the Portuguese to interview a dead man ... absolutely bizarre you should ever have thought so since he only came to their attention as a result of the shooting incident which led them to Von Aesch's body and Ylenia's possessions.

I believe the Swiss police operate to a very strict privacy code.
Therefore if they thought it might be useful for the Portuguese to be allowed to check out the vehicle as part of their investigation of Madeleine McCann's disappearance, they obviously thought it might be worthwhile.

If it was not carried out as per the invitation issued via Interpol ... there can be no doubt it was a bigger error of judgement than the failure to check the twins.

I would love to know what went on in that forest regarding the shooting incident ... I can find no other information on the man who suffered a serious gunshot wound, what he was doing there or if he even survived.

But the fact Ylenia's remains were not immediately discovered and were at some remove from the site of the van and the shooting puts a different perspective on it.

[Alice Purjorick]

One just accepts that certain events happen sequentially and logically.

For example ... Jane Tanner saw a man carrying a child and reported the sighting as soon as she could.  I assumed that the later Smith sighting was similarly reported immediately ... it came as a bit of a shock to realise that it was not reported to police until a fortnight later.

As far as Von Aesch was concerned my assumption was ... he kidnapped child ... killed child ... committed suicide ... police find child's body.  I was surprised that was not precisely what happened.

I did not know there had been two shootings.  That of Von Aesch and that of a younger unidentified man.  The police did not find Ylenia's body ... she was eventually found by a private individual because her shallow grave had been disturbed by animals.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that the Swiss police asked the Portuguese to interview a dead man ... absolutely bizarre you should ever have thought so since he only came to their attention as a result of the shooting incident which led them to Von Aesch's body and Ylenia's possessions.

I believe the Swiss police operate to a very strict privacy code.
Therefore if they thought it might be useful for the Portuguese to be allowed to check out the vehicle as part of their investigation of Madeleine McCann's disappearance, they obviously thought it might be worthwhile.

If it was not carried out as per the invitation issued via Interpol ... there can be no doubt it was a bigger error of judgement than the failure to check the twins.

I would love to know what went on in that forest regarding the shooting incident ... I can find no other information on the man who suffered a serious gunshot wound, what he was doing there or if he even survived.

But the fact Ylenia's remains were not immediately discovered and were at some remove from the site of the van and the shooting puts a different perspective on it.

I didn't. I was being sarcastic for reasons that now escape me but probably because the chronology of events around Herr von Aech's death and the Swiss Police emails would mean he had been dead for three weeks before the Swiss police contacted the PJ to find out if the PJ were interested in the vehicle; at least that is how it translates. Make of it what you will; those are the bare facts. I have no more to say on it.

[misty]

One just accepts that certain events happen sequentially and logically.

For example ... Jane Tanner saw a man carrying a child and reported the sighting as soon as she could.  I assumed that the later Smith sighting was similarly reported immediately ... it came as a bit of a shock to realise that it was not reported to police until a fortnight later.

As far as Von Aesch was concerned my assumption was ... he kidnapped child ... killed child ... committed suicide ... police find child's body.  I was surprised that was not precisely what happened.

I did not know there had been two shootings.  That of Von Aesch and that of a younger unidentified man.  The police did not find Ylenia's body ... she was eventually found by a private individual because her shallow grave had been disturbed by animals.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that the Swiss police asked the Portuguese to interview a dead man ... absolutely bizarre you should ever have thought so since he only came to their attention as a result of the shooting incident which led them to Von Aesch's body and Ylenia's possessions.

I believe the Swiss police operate to a very strict privacy code.
Therefore if they thought it might be useful for the Portuguese to be allowed to check out the vehicle as part of their investigation of Madeleine McCann's disappearance, they obviously thought it might be worthwhile.

If it was not carried out as per the invitation issued via Interpol ... there can be no doubt it was a bigger error of judgement than the failure to check the twins.

I would love to know what went on in that forest regarding the shooting incident ... I can find no other information on the man who suffered a serious gunshot wound, what he was doing there or if he even survived.

But the fact Ylenia's remains were not immediately discovered and were at some remove from the site of the van and the shooting puts a different perspective on it.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id444.html

Missing child linked to mysterious shooting and suicide Tribune de Geneve

03 August 2007

Ylenia Lenhard, 5 ½ years-old, was last seen at 9:30 a.m. on July 31 in front of the village swimming pool. Police and firemen began scouring the area, questioning residents and searching the nearby river Sitter.

Now, the mystery has taken a new and strange turn. Police in Appenzell and St-Gallen have revealed that, on the same day that Ylenia disappeared, a 46 year-old man with a gunshot wound was taken to hospital by a passing motorist. The wounded man said that he had been shot by an unknown assailant as he slept in the woods of Oberbüren (SG), 24kms from Ylenia's home. When police investigated the attack, they discovered a truck in the woods with Spanish license plates. The next morning, Aug. 1, they discovered the body of a 67 year-old Swiss man who had apparently committed suicide. Ylenia's push-bike, helmet and backpack were found next to the body.

According to police, the dead man may have tried to kill the sleeping man as a witness. However, they are now looking for a second gun: several shots were fired although the weapon found next to the body had fired only one.

Police are still investigating the scene and are trying to determine if the truck was used to carry the child. They have already ruled out any relationship between the girl's family and the two men.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Was Maddie snatched by monster who killed this little lookalike? That's the dramatic new lead uncovered by British detectives so why are the Portuguese refusing to investigate? Daily Mail

By PAUL BRACCHI and STEPHEN WRIGHT
PUBLISHED: 23:46, 24 May 2013 | UPDATED: 13:14, 25 May 2013

*snipped*
Less than a month later, he used this vehicle to abduct Ylenia as she left her local swimming pool in Appenzell. The day after she vanished, von Aesch was discovered in woodland with self-inflicted gunshot wounds to the head.

Ylenia's bicycle helmet, rucksack and a scooter were found nearby. All of the items contained von Aesch's DNA. Shortly afterwards, the remains of Ylenia were found in a shallow grave in nearby Oberbueren, a 20-minute drive from the spot where she was abducted.

At von Aesch's home in Spain, police seized diaries — in English — revealing his dark sexual fantasies about children and computer discs containing evidence that he had frequently visited child sex websites and forums on the internet.

Swiss police officers were immediately struck by the physical similarities between Ylenia and Madeleine, who had both gone missing within weeks of each other. They alerted Interpol which, in turn, contacted the Portuguese authorities about its suspicions on August 17.

When it did not get a response, it contacted them again on September 3. Again, there was no response, we were informed by sources in Interpol.

We now know why.

Just four days later, on September 7, Kate and Gerry McCann were named as arguidos in the Portuguese investigation. On September 11, police submitted a summary of their case against them to prosecutors.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The unnamed  man who was shot apparently recovered & was released from hospital. I will try to find the link.

[slartibartfast]

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id444.html

Missing child linked to mysterious shooting and suicide Tribune de Geneve

03 August 2007

Ylenia Lenhard, 5 ½ years-old, was last seen at 9:30 a.m. on July 31 in front of the village swimming pool. Police and firemen began scouring the area, questioning residents and searching the nearby river Sitter.

Now, the mystery has taken a new and strange turn. Police in Appenzell and St-Gallen have revealed that, on the same day that Ylenia disappeared, a 46 year-old man with a gunshot wound was taken to hospital by a passing motorist. The wounded man said that he had been shot by an unknown assailant as he slept in the woods of Oberbüren (SG), 24kms from Ylenia's home. When police investigated the attack, they discovered a truck in the woods with Spanish license plates. The next morning, Aug. 1, they discovered the body of a 67 year-old Swiss man who had apparently committed suicide. Ylenia's push-bike, helmet and backpack were found next to the body.

According to police, the dead man may have tried to kill the sleeping man as a witness. However, they are now looking for a second gun: several shots were fired although the weapon found next to the body had fired only one.

Police are still investigating the scene and are trying to determine if the truck was used to carry the child. They have already ruled out any relationship between the girl's family and the two men.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Was Maddie snatched by monster who killed this little lookalike? That's the dramatic new lead uncovered by British detectives so why are the Portuguese refusing to investigate? Daily Mail

By PAUL BRACCHI and STEPHEN WRIGHT
PUBLISHED: 23:46, 24 May 2013 | UPDATED: 13:14, 25 May 2013

*snipped*
Less than a month later, he used this vehicle to abduct Ylenia as she left her local swimming pool in Appenzell. The day after she vanished, von Aesch was discovered in woodland with self-inflicted gunshot wounds to the head.

Ylenia's bicycle helmet, rucksack and a scooter were found nearby. All of the items contained von Aesch's DNA. Shortly afterwards, the remains of Ylenia were found in a shallow grave in nearby Oberbueren, a 20-minute drive from the spot where she was abducted.

At von Aesch's home in Spain, police seized diaries — in English — revealing his dark sexual fantasies about children and computer discs containing evidence that he had frequently visited child sex websites and forums on the internet.

Swiss police officers were immediately struck by the physical similarities between Ylenia and Madeleine, who had both gone missing within weeks of each other. They alerted Interpol which, in turn, contacted the Portuguese authorities about its suspicions on August 17.

When it did not get a response, it contacted them again on September 3. Again, there was no response, we were informed by sources in Interpol.

We now know why.

Just four days later, on September 7, Kate and Gerry McCann were named as arguidos in the Portuguese investigation. On September 11, police submitted a summary of their case against them to prosecutors.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The unnamed  man who was shot apparently recovered & was released from hospital. I will try to find the link.

Say discounted any link.

[Brietta]

I didn't. I was being sarcastic for reasons that now escape me but probably because the chronology of events around Herr von Aech's death and the Swiss Police emails would mean he had been dead for three weeks before the Swiss police contacted the PJ to find out if the PJ were interested in the vehicle; at least that is how it translates. Make of it what you will; those are the bare facts. I have no more to say on it.

Probably an example of why sarcasm is considered to be the lowest form of wit.

The Swiss police good and all as they undoubtedly are, cannot source forensic results any quicker than anyone else nor can they get information from other jurisdictions any quicker than others.
They had to wait for DNA results which connected Von Aesch to Ylenia; they had find where he lived and the subsequent information he had been in the Algarve at the same time as the McCann family.

Three weeks is an excellent time span in which to achieve that information ... which they obviously deemed important enough to pass on to the Policia Judiciaria in the mistaken expectation they might be interested in checking it out to further the case of a missing child.

A theme running through Madeleine's disappearance is the desperate derision directed at possible sightings and witnesses whose statements divert from the Amaral line.
Surprising the resistance there is to any solution to what happened to a missing child ... the mistake in ignoring opportunities to make a proper investigation is epitomised by the failure to uptake the Swiss invitation to check Von Aesch's van.