Author Topic: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?  (Read 218130 times)

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Offline Eleanor

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #990 on: January 21, 2016, 01:53:21 PM »
Toluene was used, apparently, which smells like paint thinner but isn't sold to the general public in the UK. Maybe it is in other countries, I don't know. Had it been used in 5A I expect the smell may have lingered.

Try Googling Chloroform.  Very easy to make from ordinary household products.  And easy to carry on a pad in a plastic bag in your pocket.  It has no long lasting smell, but might account for the open window.

I personally own all of the components to make Chloroform, if I wanted to.

Offline slartibartfast

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #991 on: January 21, 2016, 01:55:00 PM »
So you think potentially Kate lied about this in her book then.  And her reason for doing so would be...?

As there was speculation on the internet that the children had been sedated it would obviously remove any suspicion against them if she told the world that she had suspicions on the night which she reported to the police.
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline Eleanor

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #992 on: January 21, 2016, 01:59:01 PM »
As there was speculation on the internet that the children had been sedated it would obviously remove any suspicion against them if she told the world that she had suspicions on the night which she reported to the police.

Speculation, but only later.  Can you not see that Kate was in no fit state at the time?

Offline G-Unit

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #993 on: January 21, 2016, 02:07:30 PM »
So Gerry had the piece of mind to theorise about the point of entry but not to get help for their children who they were 'very concerned about ' and not afterwards Lace on that very night.

It's quite amazing the variety of excuses some people will make for the strange behaviour of this couple. One argues that they were so traumatised and panicked that they didn't know if they were coming or going. Another argues that as trained doctors they knew there was no need to panic about the twins. Why report how 'very concerned' they were then? They either were or they weren't.
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Offline G-Unit

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #994 on: January 21, 2016, 02:10:34 PM »
Try Googling Chloroform.  Very easy to make from ordinary household products.  And easy to carry on a pad in a plastic bag in your pocket.  It has no long lasting smell, but might account for the open window.

I personally own all of the components to make Chloroform, if I wanted to.

If you are suggesting it was used on the twins it only lasts while you hold the pad over the face. Recovery is immediate once the inhalation stops.
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Offline slartibartfast

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #995 on: January 21, 2016, 02:27:40 PM »
Speculation, but only later.  Can you not see that Kate was in no fit state at the time?

Kate's state at the time is immaterial, the book was written with a lot of hindsight.
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline Eleanor

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #996 on: January 21, 2016, 02:49:18 PM »
If you are suggesting it was used on the twins it only lasts while you hold the pad over the face. Recovery is immediate once the inhalation stops.

No, recovery isn't immediate.  Unless you can provide a cite that says otherwise.

Offline Eleanor

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #997 on: January 21, 2016, 02:50:05 PM »
Kate's state at the time is immaterial, the book was written with a lot of hindsight.

Precisely.

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #998 on: January 21, 2016, 03:32:49 PM »
It was all done in a panic Faithlilly,    Gerry ran outside to see if the shutters could be lifted from outside the apartment,   then he thought someone had come in through the window and taken Madeleine.

The fact that the twins slept through everything was something they were very concerned about afterwards,  Kate was checking on the twins in between  crying, screaming,  hitting things and berating herself for leaving Madeleine,  she was trained as an anaesthetist  she would know what to look out for.

Dianne couldn't lift them from the outside and the police found them down, the window shut and they tested for prints. Why Kate was punching and kicking walls is unknown. Have you got any evidence of Gerry running outside to lift shutters? Err David certainly didn't mention it being in the apartment with the McCanns.

1485 "Okay. When you went in after the alarm was raised what was the bedroom like at that point''
 00:18:01 Reply "Err the, you know again I, it, it wasn't, it wasn't dark, it wasn't really, really dark but it you know my overall impression was the room was fairly dark. The, the children as I said before were still err fast asleep, which again you know we've discussed this you know over the months that Kate and Gerry you know, as all children wake up you know in the night and err you know with all the pandemonium and the shouting, breaking, that they were still you know, fast asleep, and err you know I wouldn't describe that I could see anything in the room like there'd been, you know, clothes thrown around the room or anything and disturbed and you know I, I noticed that the bed was empty that Madeleine was sleeping in. Other people have described that the bed was very neat and tidy but that isn't what, you know, I could confirm.'
1485 "What was the bed like that you can confirm''
 Reply "I, I, you know, I, my note, visual note was she's not there, the twins are there, you know I just ran out and you know was wanting to, you know, run around like a headless chicken and try and do something you know to be helpful.'
00:19:23 1485 "How long do you think you were in that bedroom for''
 Reply "Err as I say when I was there I wasn't actually, hadn't walked in to the whole part of the bedroom, if anything I'd just stepped in to the room just from the, err you know the doorway perhaps just beyond the doorway, but I hadn't you know gone right in to say like where the twins were or in between where the beds were. Err again it's, it's difficult, it's difficult to say because I could have well pop back more than once just, you know, you know with Gerry, you know moving, you know we were moving around so frequently, err I wasn't certainly there for any length of time, whether it'd be a minute, you know that would be something, or that I'd ever stayed at the maximum because there was just so much else.' .... ......
« Last Edit: January 21, 2016, 03:40:58 PM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #999 on: January 21, 2016, 04:07:08 PM »
If you are suggesting it was used on the twins it only lasts while you hold the pad over the face. Recovery is immediate once the inhalation stops.

It works in Tintin stories apparently.
Being serious however: http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/motm/chloroform/chloroformv.htm

"Contrary to popular belief, it was very difficult to chloroform a patient to that extent. A skilled anaesthetist could take 5 minutes to render a patient suitable for surgery".

"Chloroform was phased out because the window between the dose that is an effective anesthesia and the dose that kills is too narrow and there were available drugs with better windows". [different source]

So the administering may pose a problem, together with keeping a person "out".
Looks like a non starter.
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline slartibartfast

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #1000 on: January 21, 2016, 04:18:08 PM »
It works in Tintin stories apparently.
Being serious however: http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/motm/chloroform/chloroformv.htm

"Contrary to popular belief, it was very difficult to chloroform a patient to that extent. A skilled anaesthetist could take 5 minutes to render a patient suitable for surgery".

"Chloroform was phased out because the window between the dose that is an effective anesthesia and the dose that kills is too narrow and there were available drugs with better windows". [different source]

So the administering may pose a problem, together with keeping a person "out".
Looks like a non starter.

It starts getting worrying when you start to guess what the next post will say...
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline Lace

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #1001 on: January 21, 2016, 05:14:31 PM »
Dianne couldn't lift them from the outside and the police found them down, the window shut and they tested for prints. Why Kate was punching and kicking walls is unknown. Have you got any evidence of Gerry running outside to lift shutters? Err David certainly didn't mention it being in the apartment with the McCanns.

1485 "Okay. When you went in after the alarm was raised what was the bedroom like at that point''
 00:18:01 Reply "Err the, you know again I, it, it wasn't, it wasn't dark, it wasn't really, really dark but it you know my overall impression was the room was fairly dark. The, the children as I said before were still err fast asleep, which again you know we've discussed this you know over the months that Kate and Gerry you know, as all children wake up you know in the night and err you know with all the pandemonium and the shouting, breaking, that they were still you know, fast asleep, and err you know I wouldn't describe that I could see anything in the room like there'd been, you know, clothes thrown around the room or anything and disturbed and you know I, I noticed that the bed was empty that Madeleine was sleeping in. Other people have described that the bed was very neat and tidy but that isn't what, you know, I could confirm.'
1485 "What was the bed like that you can confirm''
 Reply "I, I, you know, I, my note, visual note was she's not there, the twins are there, you know I just ran out and you know was wanting to, you know, run around like a headless chicken and try and do something you know to be helpful.'
00:19:23 1485 "How long do you think you were in that bedroom for''
 Reply "Err as I say when I was there I wasn't actually, hadn't walked in to the whole part of the bedroom, if anything I'd just stepped in to the room just from the, err you know the doorway perhaps just beyond the doorway, but I hadn't you know gone right in to say like where the twins were or in between where the beds were. Err again it's, it's difficult, it's difficult to say because I could have well pop back more than once just, you know, you know with Gerry, you know moving, you know we were moving around so frequently, err I wasn't certainly there for any length of time, whether it'd be a minute, you know that would be something, or that I'd ever stayed at the maximum because there was just so much else.' .... ......

Read Gerry's statement 10th of May,  he said he went outside to see if he could raise the shutters and he could.

Offline Lace

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #1002 on: January 21, 2016, 05:19:38 PM »
It's quite amazing the variety of excuses some people will make for the strange behaviour of this couple. One argues that they were so traumatised and panicked that they didn't know if they were coming or going. Another argues that as trained doctors they knew there was no need to panic about the twins. Why report how 'very concerned' they were then? They either were or they weren't.

What variety of excuses would they be?   what strange behaviour of the couple?    If you think by saying they would have been traumatised is an excuse then you really need to read up on how parents who have found their child missing react.   If you call strange behaviour not screaming that the twins wouldn't wake up,  when you have the McCanns's crying and unable to grasp the fact that Madeleine has gone,  did not behave in a cool calm manner and take everything in hand straight away.

Kate McCann was worried for the twins,   she checked on them,   probably acting on auto pilot,   as you would if your brain was swimming with all sorts of images,  such as 'who has got Madeleine,  where is she,  whats happening to her'    your inability to understand this is unbelievable.

Offline faithlilly

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #1003 on: January 21, 2016, 05:30:49 PM »
What variety of excuses would they be?   what strange behaviour of the couple?    If you think by saying they would have been traumatised is an excuse then you really need to read up on how parents who have found their child missing react.   If you call strange behaviour not screaming that the twins wouldn't wake up,  when you have the McCanns's crying and unable to grasp the fact that Madeleine has gone,  did not behave in a cool calm manner and take everything in hand straight away.

Kate McCann was worried for the twins,   she checked on them,   probably acting on auto pilot,   as you would if your brain was swimming with all sorts of images,  such as 'who has got Madeleine,  where is she,  whats happening to her'    your inability to understand this is unbelievable.

Things Kate was able to do on the night of the 3rd of May while suffering from shock  : Speak to people hundreds of miles away who were unable to help.

Things Kate was unable to do on the night of the 3rd of May while suffering from shock : Speak to the police officers on the scene who would have been able to help.

Now can you see the problem ?
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Lace

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #1004 on: January 21, 2016, 05:49:42 PM »
Things Kate was able to do on the night of the 3rd of May while suffering from shock  : Speak to people hundreds of miles away who were unable to help.

Things Kate was unable to do on the night of the 3rd of May while suffering from shock : Speak to the police officers on the scene who would have been able to help.

Now can you see the problem ?

They were in a foreign country and their child goes missing,   believe me I would be straight on the phone to  my family,  they needed to know and the McCann's needed support.

Kate McCann said in her book she did ask the Police to test the twins,   whether you believe that or not is entirely up to you.   I for one do not believe they would jeopardise the lives of their twins,  they were obviously cherished and loved,  you seem to think they didn't care.