Author Topic: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?  (Read 218081 times)

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Offline Lace

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #1095 on: January 22, 2016, 02:58:42 PM »
I think your bias is showing Alfred. If you and your fellows are convinced I'm wrong use the evidence to defeat me instead of stooping to attacking me personally. So far all I've seen is speculation, sentimentality and, the last resort, quoting Amaral. The parents were 'very concerned' and did nothing. Fiona Payne and her mother thought it odd and said nothing. I see nothing wrong in saying so because it's true. The concerned ones are the only ones whose duty was to act.

Kate was concerned because of the stain on Madeleine's pyjama's that's all,   as a Dr. she could see the twins were just sleeping but deeply,   as some children do sleep deeply at times and sleep through loud noises,  it was probably just a nagging she had.

You should try a bit of sentimentality sometimes you know,   putting yourself in the McCann's shoes on that night,  I don't think you are able to though,  to you they are just uncaring,  devious people who staged an abduction.

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #1096 on: January 22, 2016, 03:12:56 PM »
Why am I not surprised that you would expect such a thing.  Do you know the McCanns?  were you there that night?  Did you witness the state of the twins?  You know nothing, so stop making things up.

SY have recently interviewed this witness.

"She observed that none of the elements of the group including the father and mother of the child was concerned with looking for her."

Silvia Maria Correia Ramos Batista

Date/Time: 2007/05/07 11H20

As she said earlier she was alerted about the disappearance of Madeleine between 22.30 and 23:00. She was at home and was informed of the event via a telephone call.

She drove immediately to the Ocean Club where she arrived a few minutes before elements of the GNR popped in.

After she arrived she went immediately to the apartment A5 where she found several people inside the apartment and outside of it. She entered in the flat but soon left without having spoken with anyone, because she was informed that elements of the GNR were in the principal reception. She went there to meet them.

When she came close to the elements of the GNR she found that behind her was Gerry, Madeleine's father, accompanied by another man whose identity she doesn't remember. Then Gerry kneeled down, hit the floor with both hands, positioning himself as if he were a praying Arab, and screamed twice of anger, what he said being impossible to understand. Then Gerry stand up and accompanied her (the witness) and the other man in the car of the GNR to the apartment A5.

She entered the apartment and asked for the passports of all elements of the family, and also photographs of the missing girl. She went with Gerry to the GNR car to hand over the requested documents. She mentions she did this, as well as other tasks, at the request of the GNR Commandant, because she could translate their questions and the missing girl's family's answers.

She remembers Gerry gave the Commandant of several photographs of the missing girl. They were postcard-like pictures, taking into account their size and shape and seemed all the same to her.

She understood also that since the very beginning either Gerry or the others insisted on stating that Madeleine had been snatched, all using the word "abducted" instead of missing, and all showing much interest in informing the press of the situation.

She also recalls entering in the room where Madeleine should be sleeping and remembers now that the door was closed. The room was dark. The blinds were down, some light entering through their holes. The windows were closed and the curtains slightly open. Gerry, who followed her and the elements of the GNR, said he did close the window because of the babies sleeping in the room, a fact she confirms.

Gerry said that when he discovered the disappearance of Madeleine he noticed that the window and the blinds were open and the curtains fluttering.

She recalls that the beds which were in the middle of the room and used by the babies were aligned and therefore found it strange that someone had taken Madeleine from the bed where she would be sleeping and had gone to the window because there was no space to pass.

She opened the wardrobes of that room in order to confirm that Madeleine wasn't eventually hiding there.

Then everyone left the room and someone shut the door. She remained for some time in the living room, near the GNR elements, Gerry and other elements of the group who got in and out and spoke on their cellular phones.

She observed that none of the elements of the group including the father and mother of the child was concerned with looking for her.

The mother was sitting on the bed of her room, the father was with her (the witness) and the elements of the GNR, and other elements of the group got in and out and spoke on the phone, anxious, in her opinion, to tell the press what happened.

She thought that the child's mother was devastated, the father was worried and also asked to notify the press and to get dogs to search.

About the others she only remembers that Fiona and her husband, Payne, were hysterical with the situation.

At a certain time, after the arrival of the PJ elements, the parents removed the twins from the beds in which they were still sleeping and took them to the first floor flat.

At the request of Kate she (the witness) to remove their puppets drink and a blanket that she took to the first floor flat. Only the mattresses remained.

She wanted to mention that around 3h00 Madeleine's parents asked for a priest to be present. They didn't explain why they wanted a priest but she (the witness) was amazed, because there were no indications that the little girl was dead and only in these circumstances is usually asked the presence of a priest.

At some point she translated the statement of one of the ladies who belonged to the group and that she describes as a brunette one. This lady said to the GNR elements, and she (the witness) translated, that she had seen a man on the road who might have carried a child.

This situation surprised her because she (the witness) was convinced that when the lady saw the man, the lady was in a place from where she had no angle of vision for the place where she saw the man. She doesn't know exactly what was the position of the lady when she saw the man, but she knows that the lady said she saw the man in the street in front of the Madeleine's bedroom window, walking in the direction of the street that then leads to the Baptista supermarket.

Asked about the way the members of the group were dressed up in that night, she only remembers that Fiona was wearing a green blouse, that Gerry was wearing a dark shirt and the husband of Fiona wearing clear pants, beige she thinks.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SILVIA_BATISTA.htm
« Last Edit: January 22, 2016, 03:20:21 PM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline faithlilly

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #1097 on: January 22, 2016, 03:15:43 PM »
No, I don't think police officers would have gone with them - why would they have?  The McCanns could have used the twins welfare ("help, our kids have been dangerously sedated!!!")  as an excuse to remove themselves and their children from the scene of the crime straight away, even before the police turned up.

And that wouldn't have looked suspicious, would it ?
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Brietta

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #1098 on: January 22, 2016, 03:20:13 PM »
Kate was concerned because of the stain on Madeleine's pyjama's that's all,   as a Dr. she could see the twins were just sleeping but deeply,   as some children do sleep deeply at times and sleep through loud noises,  it was probably just a nagging she had.

You should try a bit of sentimentality sometimes you know,   putting yourself in the McCann's shoes on that night,  I don't think you are able to though,  to you they are just uncaring,  devious people who staged an abduction.

I don't think sentimentality comes into it, Lace.  Common sense should be enough.

Yesterday a member posted her distress about a pet cat and having picked up two of mine and one of my daughter's up off the road I know the distress caused by losing a little furry friend.

I cannot begin to think where I would have been at if a child of mine had vanished in the way Madeleine McCann did ... I think Madeleine's disappearance would have precipitated unimaginable pain and hysteria.

Yet all concerned ... her nearest and dearest ... the friends ... all the holidaymakers and residents who helped to search ... are somehow expected to shrug it off and behave as rationally as they would under normal circumstances.

Probably the only people who could be expected to behave as normal in those circumstances would be professional law enforcement personnel.
They too made acknowledge mistakes on that night ... many of them ... and it was their call to deal with all procedures from the moment they arrived on site.  So the failure to check the twins is entirely theirs. 
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #1099 on: January 22, 2016, 03:26:29 PM »
I think your bias is showing Alfred. If you and your fellows are convinced I'm wrong use the evidence to defeat me instead of stooping to attacking me personally. So far all I've seen is speculation, sentimentality and, the last resort, quoting Amaral. The parents were 'very concerned' and did nothing. Fiona Payne and her mother thought it odd and said nothing. I see nothing wrong in saying so because it's true. The concerned ones are the only ones whose duty was to act.
And you don't think your bias is showing? So far all I've seen is speculation about how you think parents in the McCanns' situation should have behaved, coupled with snide judgemental remarks about the McCanns "not caring enough" about the twins.  Stop perpetuating the myth that the parents did nothing, Kate clearly reports what she did, which was to monitor the twins breathing and holding them close.

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #1100 on: January 22, 2016, 03:37:02 PM »
And that wouldn't have looked suspicious, would it ?
Everything looks suspicious if you want it to.  Going to the hospital, not going to the hospital, searching, not searching. etc.etc.

Offline Brietta

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #1101 on: January 22, 2016, 03:44:36 PM »
Everything looks suspicious if you want it to.  Going to the hospital, not going to the hospital, searching, not searching. etc.etc.

It seems the most suspicious of all was discovering that her daughter was missing from bed followed a close second by not immediately lifting the twins to run to the hospital, wherever that was, to have them tested for drugs.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #1102 on: January 22, 2016, 04:09:23 PM »
It seems the most suspicious of all was discovering that her daughter was missing from bed followed a close second by not immediately lifting the twins to run to the hospital, wherever that was, to have them tested for drugs.
I doubt that you are really asking this but ...

There is a small hospital in Lagos, but it is basic, and I doubt it had the ability to test for drugs.

There is a public medical centre in Lagos, which I would expect to carry out fairly detailed blood tests.  It is day-time only.

There is a blood lab in Lagos that does detailed analysis of blood.  It's fast turn-round, which I know because we've used it.  Again day time only.

The nearest large hospital would be the one near Portimão, and I'm sure that could do blood tests.  It's the one you normally get taken to if you ask for an ambulance, so it was a matter of requesting an ambulance.  So it is 24 hour.

Both Sylvia Baptista and John Hill, English speakers, would have known most or all of this.

As I said at the start, I doubt you were actually requesting this info.
What's up, old man?

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #1103 on: January 22, 2016, 04:19:19 PM »
Kate McCann's choices on the night of 3rd May 2007

1) Leave the scene of her daughter's sudden disappearance to accompany her twins to a hospital at some distance away to have needles stuck in them to withdraw blood samples and wait for x number of minutes / hours for the results to be known.
2) Leave the scene of her daughter's sudden disappearance to accompany her twins to a nearby hospital and insist that her kids stomachs are pumped, despite the fact that there is no proof that they have swallowed anything harmful.
3) Keep her kids close by her, worrying about them but checking on them regularly and holding them close reassured by friends who all happen to be medical people too.

Any other choices?

Offline G-Unit

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #1104 on: January 22, 2016, 04:37:56 PM »
As I have said before there are things you can watch for,  such as a child settling itself asleep when you pick it up,  they were Drs. able to look out for signs.    Dianne on the other hand is not a Dr.

Kate says in her book that when they went up to David and Fiona's apartment her and Fiona cuddled a twin each on the sofa.

Then Gerry was stretched out on a camp bed with Amelie asleep on his chest.

Kate couldn't sleep and stayed awake wandering restlessly in and out of the room and on to the balcony.

Fiona's a doctor. I know what Kate said, but once again it doesn't fit with other people's statements.
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Alfred R Jones

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Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #1105 on: January 22, 2016, 04:48:03 PM »
Fiona's a doctor. I know what Kate said, but once again it doesn't fit with other people's statements.
How does it "not fit"?

Offline G-Unit

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #1106 on: January 22, 2016, 04:51:54 PM »
Kate McCann's choices on the night of 3rd May 2007

1) Leave the scene of her daughter's sudden disappearance to accompany her twins to a hospital at some distance away to have needles stuck in them to withdraw blood samples and wait for x number of minutes / hours for the results to be known.
2) Leave the scene of her daughter's sudden disappearance to accompany her twins to a nearby hospital and insist that her kids stomachs are pumped, despite the fact that there is no proof that they have swallowed anything harmful.
3) Keep her kids close by her, worrying about them but checking on them regularly and holding them close reassured by friends who all happen to be medical people too.

Any other choices?

Take them to hospital where they would be assessed and probably observed for the rest of the night if they responded OK to direct stimulation. That would have  allayed her concerns because she would know they were in the right place if their condition worsened.  In case of emergency they are trained to get help, after all. It's drummed into them, according to Gerald. Better to be safe than sorry, as they say.
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Alfred R Jones

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Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #1107 on: January 22, 2016, 04:55:02 PM »
Take them to hospital where they would be assessed and probably observed for the rest of the night if they responded OK to direct stimulation. That would have  allayed her concerns because she would know they were in the right place if their condition worsened.  In case of emergency they are trained to get help, after all. It's drummed into them, according to Gerald. Better to be safe than sorry, as they say.
The twins were assessed and observed, Kate made sure of it.  You repeatedly say she did nothing, and showed little concern for them but that is blatantly untrue, as we know from Fiona's witness statement.

Offline G-Unit

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #1108 on: January 22, 2016, 05:54:02 PM »
The twins were assessed and observed, Kate made sure of it.  You repeatedly say she did nothing, and showed little concern for them but that is blatantly untrue, as we know from Fiona's witness statement.

I don't pretend to know what a Portuguese hospital would do if I took a child in and said I suspected sedation, but I don't think it would involve feeling backs. I would think something like the tests for the Glasgow Coma scale would have been the starting point. I wonder if Gerald had heard of it? If you watch the video the first thing to do is call their names and see if their eyes open. That would have been my starting point also, even knowing nothing about medicine.
http://glasgowcomascale.org/



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Alfred R Jones

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Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #1109 on: January 22, 2016, 06:04:22 PM »
I don't pretend to know what a Portuguese hospital would do if I took a child in and said I suspected sedation, but I don't think it would involve feeling backs. I would think something like the tests for the Glasgow Coma scale would have been the starting point. I wonder if Gerald had heard of it? If you watch the video the first thing to do is call their names and see if their eyes open. That would have been my starting point also, even knowing nothing about medicine.
http://glasgowcomascale.org/
Are you disputing the fact that two trained doctors were closely monitoring and assessing the condition of the twins throughout that night?