Author Topic: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?  (Read 218019 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Lace

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #1215 on: January 25, 2016, 11:04:34 AM »
Catriona Baker statement 6th May. I wonder how many times a 'few' are? More than one, more than two, which would be a couple of times. Three or more times then? Never even mentioned by the parents, however.

Questioned, she responds that since she has been working with the little girl, it has seemed to her that the parents were attentive to their daughter given that they asked what Madeleine had done in the creche and that they even accompanied Madeleine a few times in certain outside activities.

Yes,  and?      I've read the Nannies statements,  and yes they do say that they chatted to them and that they wanted to know what they had done that day etc.   

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #1216 on: January 25, 2016, 11:31:54 AM »
Yes,  and?      I've read the Nannies statements,  and yes they do say that they chatted to them and that they wanted to know what they had done that day etc.

Nannies 1   Babysitter 0.

Offline sadie

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #1217 on: January 25, 2016, 11:32:32 AM »
Catriona Baker statement 6th May. I wonder how many times a 'few' are? More than one, more than two, which would be a couple of times. Three or more times then? Never even mentioned by the parents, however.

Questioned, she responds that since she has been working with the little girl, it has seemed to her that the parents were attentive to their daughter given that they asked what Madeleine had done in the creche and that they even accompanied Madeleine a few times in certain outside activities.
Excellent.  Sounds as tho they were exceptionally attentive parents.  and of course they had the twins in another group.  another group where it seems likely that they accompanied them on certain outside activities too!

Puts paid to all the silly talk that the Mccanns put their kids in nursery then ignored them to enjoy themselves all the time.

Thank you Gunit for that Gem

Offline slartibartfast

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #1218 on: January 25, 2016, 11:34:15 AM »
Excellent.  Sounds as tho they were exceptionally attentive parents.  and of course they had the twins in another group.  another group where it seems likely that they accompanied them on certain outside activities too!

Puts paid to all the silly talk that the Mccanns put their kids in nursery then ignored them to enjoy themselves all the time.

Thank you Gunit for that Gem

Makes you wonder why the sailing wasn't attended.
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline sadie

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #1219 on: January 25, 2016, 11:55:15 AM »
Makes you wonder why the sailing wasn't attended.

None of the other parents went especially to watch their children sailing.

What is your reason for picking on the Mccanns?

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #1220 on: January 25, 2016, 11:57:08 AM »
None of the other parents went especially to watch their children sailing.

What is your reason for picking on the Mccanns?

We are discussing this case.

Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #1221 on: January 25, 2016, 12:56:26 PM »
Catriona Baker statement 6th May. I wonder how many times a 'few' are? More than one, more than two, which would be a couple of times. Three or more times then? Never even mentioned by the parents, however.

Questioned, she responds that since she has been working with the little girl, it has seemed to her that the parents were attentive to their daughter given that they asked what Madeleine had done in the creche and that they even accompanied Madeleine a few times in certain outside activities.
You would also need to establish what the outside activities were.  Mini-tennis?  High tea?  I wonder if Catriona knew the 3 kids were taken to the beach by the parents? And there is no hint in Kate's book that they enquired in advance about the three children's activity schedule so they could co-ordinate.

I have witnessed one MW trip to the beach.  One child-minder, 6 or 8 children aged 3-4, and not a parent in sight.  I don't know what they did at the beach.  I was busy stopping my grandson from leaping off the esplanade.
What's up, old man?

Offline G-Unit

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #1222 on: January 25, 2016, 02:31:27 PM »
Excellent.  Sounds as tho they were exceptionally attentive parents.  and of course they had the twins in another group.  another group where it seems likely that they accompanied them on certain outside activities too!

Puts paid to all the silly talk that the Mccanns put their kids in nursery then ignored them to enjoy themselves all the time.

Thank you Gunit for that Gem

I did wonder which outside activities they attended though. I suppose it depends what she means by 'outside'. Outside the creche I will assume. It's unlikely to have happened in the mornings because it was tennis between 9.15 and 11.15 then it was almost time to pick the children up for lunch. In the afternoons outside activities were;

Swimming 3.30-4.20 on Sunday. Garden Adventure 3.30-4.30 on Monday. Ice-cream trip and beach play 2.30-4.30 on Tuesday. Olympics grass time 3.30-4.30 on Wednesday. Swimming 3.30-4.30 on Thursday.

We know they didn't attend the Tuesday activities as that was the day they took the children to the beach at lunchtime. We know that on Thursday they played tennis from 3pm to 4.30pm, and they stayed around the Tapas area until the children came for tea. That leaves us with five possibles. Swimming on Sunday or Thursday, Garden Adventure and Olympics grass time on Monday and Wednesday respective and Mini tennis on Tuesday morning.

They were around during Mini tennis because they had their lessons as usual. Could that be described as 'accompanying'? Not really. Neither parent mentions accompanying Madeleine on her swimming outings, or her 'grass time', but they could have I suppose.
Read and abide by the forum rules.
Result = happy posting.
Ignore and break the rules
Result = edits, deletions and unhappiness
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?board=2.0

Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #1223 on: January 25, 2016, 03:38:04 PM »
I did wonder which outside activities they attended though. I suppose it depends what she means by 'outside'. Outside the creche I will assume. It's unlikely to have happened in the mornings because it was tennis between 9.15 and 11.15 then it was almost time to pick the children up for lunch. In the afternoons outside activities were;

Swimming 3.30-4.20 on Sunday. Garden Adventure 3.30-4.30 on Monday. Ice-cream trip and beach play 2.30-4.30 on Tuesday. Olympics grass time 3.30-4.30 on Wednesday. Swimming 3.30-4.30 on Thursday.

We know they didn't attend the Tuesday activities as that was the day they took the children to the beach at lunchtime. We know that on Thursday they played tennis from 3pm to 4.30pm, and they stayed around the Tapas area until the children came for tea. That leaves us with five possibles. Swimming on Sunday or Thursday, Garden Adventure and Olympics grass time on Monday and Wednesday respective and Mini tennis on Tuesday morning.

They were around during Mini tennis because they had their lessons as usual. Could that be described as 'accompanying'? Not really. Neither parent mentions accompanying Madeleine on her swimming outings, or her 'grass time', but they could have I suppose.
If you are correct about their Thursday tennis, then it overlaps the swimming schedule, and rules that out, surely?

Kate went for a jog along the beach on Thursday, communicating with the Tapas 7, who were at the Paraíso.  She finished her jog at the Tapas, where Madeleine was already at high tea.

Now the interesting thing about the swimming is that Madeleine would have required a swimming costume.  In turn that would suggest the parents in that group were pre-informed about swimming, and the need for a costume.  Which suggests they were getting advance notice of at least some of the activities.
What's up, old man?

Offline Brietta

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #1224 on: January 25, 2016, 04:04:55 PM »
It is widely accepted that the Policia Judiciaria made many mistakes throughout the initial phases of the investigation of Madeleine McCann's disappearance.

Some posters appear to be reluctant to accept that one of which may have been the failure to check the twins. 

That the twins were monitored by doctors till the morning is fortunate; that they suffered no ill effects whether or not exposed to some inhalant or not, is fortunate; that nothing was learned about the reason for their deep sleep apart from normal tiredness is imo just another omission.

All posters seem to be of the opinion that at least a reasonable search was conducted ... we've seen the pictures.

We weren't there at the time, but a former commander at Scotland Yard was and he was none too impressed by the quality of the searches he observed.


John O'Connor on RTE 190513
on SoundCloud.


**Snip

I was there with GMTV at the time and the press were being briefed covertly by Portuguese journalists and police officers that they believed that the offenders were within the family or the family group ...

and they would't move from that and they were so wrong ...

and it got them off to a dreadful start and they missed golden opportunities in the early stages of the investigation ...

because they were just intent on trying to to prove some culpability within the family and they could't have been further from the actual truth of it and of course what SY been trying to do is to catch up with what should have been done at the time. 

There's a lot of things that weren't done.

I mean I saw the searches that were carried out on open ground and so on and they were cursory, to say the least.

I mean if they came across a locked shed or whatever they wouldn't force the door, now this it really was ...

A lot of the stuff that was seen to be done seemed to be window dressing for the world's media and I didn't get the impression that they were really going about this ...

https://madeleinemccannthetruth.wordpress.com/2013/05/22/john-oconnor-speaking-to-marian-finucane/


Amazing that at this early stage in the investigation the Portuguese journalists were singing from the same hymn sheet as the police to drip venom into the ears of foreign journalists and pundits.

If I were looking for a missing pet cat I would want to see inside locked sheds and lock ups.  From what John Conner saw ~ Madeleine was not given that consideration:

Golden hours ... what on earth are golden hours??

I would rate the obvious attempt to implicate her parents as a bigger mistake than the failure to test the twins.

Not bothering to force or have locked premises opened for inspection yet another.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline G-Unit

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #1225 on: January 25, 2016, 05:05:56 PM »
If you are correct about their Thursday tennis, then it overlaps the swimming schedule, and rules that out, surely?

Kate went for a jog along the beach on Thursday, communicating with the Tapas 7, who were at the Paraíso.  She finished her jog at the Tapas, where Madeleine was already at high tea.

Now the interesting thing about the swimming is that Madeleine would have required a swimming costume.  In turn that would suggest the parents in that group were pre-informed about swimming, and the need for a costume.  Which suggests they were getting advance notice of at least some of the activities.

Well spotted! So that leaves us with Sunday swimming and two 'grass based' activities on Monday and Wednesday when both parents could have been present.

Read and abide by the forum rules.
Result = happy posting.
Ignore and break the rules
Result = edits, deletions and unhappiness
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?board=2.0

Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #1226 on: January 25, 2016, 05:46:43 PM »
It is widely accepted that the Policia Judiciaria made many mistakes throughout the initial phases of the investigation of Madeleine McCann's disappearance.

Some posters appear to be reluctant to accept that one of which may have been the failure to check the twins. 

That the twins were monitored by doctors till the morning is fortunate; that they suffered no ill effects whether or not exposed to some inhalant or not, is fortunate; that nothing was learned about the reason for their deep sleep apart from normal tiredness is imo just another omission.

All posters seem to be of the opinion that at least a reasonable search was conducted ... we've seen the pictures.

We weren't there at the time, but a former commander at Scotland Yard was and he was none too impressed by the quality of the searches he observed.


John O'Connor on RTE 190513
on SoundCloud.


**Snip

I was there with GMTV at the time and the press were being briefed covertly by Portuguese journalists and police officers that they believed that the offenders were within the family or the family group ...

and they would't move from that and they were so wrong ...

and it got them off to a dreadful start and they missed golden opportunities in the early stages of the investigation ...

because they were just intent on trying to to prove some culpability within the family and they could't have been further from the actual truth of it and of course what SY been trying to do is to catch up with what should have been done at the time. 

There's a lot of things that weren't done.

I mean I saw the searches that were carried out on open ground and so on and they were cursory, to say the least.

I mean if they came across a locked shed or whatever they wouldn't force the door, now this it really was ...

A lot of the stuff that was seen to be done seemed to be window dressing for the world's media and I didn't get the impression that they were really going about this ...

https://madeleinemccannthetruth.wordpress.com/2013/05/22/john-oconnor-speaking-to-marian-finucane/


Amazing that at this early stage in the investigation the Portuguese journalists were singing from the same hymn sheet as the police to drip venom into the ears of foreign journalists and pundits.

If I were looking for a missing pet cat I would want to see inside locked sheds and lock ups.  From what John Conner saw ~ Madeleine was not given that consideration:

Golden hours ... what on earth are golden hours??

I would rate the obvious attempt to implicate her parents as a bigger mistake than the failure to test the twins.

Not bothering to force or have locked premises opened for inspection yet another.
In how many searches in his time did John Connor go around breaking into locked premises illegally?

The law in Portugal does not allow the police to break and enter.  That happens to be a crime here, just as it is in the UK.  You get permission from the owner to search.  Or you get a court order, which would not be issued without some evidence more solid than the premises are locked.  Empty premises are normally locked.

Does Mr Connor have ANY idea of how many locked premises there are in a 15km radius of Luz?  (I believe that was the search radius please correct me if I'm inaccurate on that.)  Does Mr Connor have ANY idea of the number of officers required to search the area to the standards he is suggesting?

Does Mr Connor have ANY idea of how many plots of land within Luz were earmarked for development but not built upon both then and now.  OG spent what, certainly over week with a total deployment of around 50 officers (OG, GNR and PJ), ground penetrating radar, sniffer dogs, and achieved WHAT?  They learned it's hard to dig a hole in Luz.

So that is one patch of land down.  I'm fairly sure I could get another couple of dozen plots, all of similar size, and ALL strictly WITHIN Luz.

Then there's the 15km radius to consider.

I'm afraid I am filing Mr Connor's opinion along with a number of other so called experts who find talking is easy and criticism is cheap, but simply have not considered what in practical terms it would cost to implement.

There was the failure to seal off Luz, something that would take literally hundreds of officers.  There was not rounding up all the tourists, and forcing them to remain in Luz until a formal statement had been obtained.  There was not diving in every abandoned well in the search area.  There was not sealing the borders by closing every crossing point, shutting airports, and manning marinas. 

Now to this, the PJ failed to add the crime of multiple illegal entries.

Does Mr Conner have a clue about how Luz worked?  From memory, the OC had an occupancy rate of about 50%, which means that half the properties were empty and locked.  Luz was stuffed with villas and apartments that mirror this.

Has Mr Connor built into his calculation that people over here drive cars, vans and motorbikes on a routine basis?  That by the time of the very first call to the GNR Madeleine could have been in a boat and leaving the country?  That by the time the PJ arrived Madeleine could have been driven to Spain or to Lisbon?

These "massive initial response" scenarios all have 2 key elements.  First, that the word of the parent's should have simply have been accepted as true, despite there being no sign whatsoever of a break-in, and despite the stats about those most likely to be involved in a child's disappearance.  Second, that truly gigantic amounts of time and resources should have been thrown at this.

I do not believe Mr Connor has done the most basic of cost-benefit analyses on this.  This idea never gets near to getting off the ground.

There definitely are things that could have been done better.  This is not one.

By the way, I should have added magic forensics and DNA that was supposedly about to crack the case.  And when did phone triangulation first emerge, also supposedly about to crack the case in 2007?  Pity there was no DNA database at the time, and there's no triangulation in the phone files, but why let facts get in the way of a good story?
What's up, old man?

Offline Brietta

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #1227 on: January 25, 2016, 06:19:01 PM »
In how many searches in his time did John Connor go around breaking into locked premises illegally?

The law in Portugal does not allow the police to break and enter.  That happens to be a crime here, just as it is in the UK.  You get permission from the owner to search.  Or you get a court order, which would not be issued without some evidence more solid than the premises are locked.  Empty premises are normally locked.

Does Mr Connor have ANY idea of how many locked premises there are in a 15km radius of Luz?  (I believe that was the search radius please correct me if I'm inaccurate on that.)  Does Mr Connor have ANY idea of the number of officers required to search the area to the standards he is suggesting?

Does Mr Connor have ANY idea of how many plots of land within Luz were earmarked for development but not built upon both then and now.  OG spent what, certainly over week with a total deployment of around 50 officers (OG, GNR and PJ), ground penetrating radar, sniffer dogs, and achieved WHAT?  They learned it's hard to dig a hole in Luz.

So that is one patch of land down.  I'm fairly sure I could get another couple of dozen plots, all of similar size, and ALL strictly WITHIN Luz.

Then there's the 15km radius to consider.

I'm afraid I am filing Mr Connor's opinion along with a number of other so called experts who find talking is easy and criticism is cheap, but simply have not considered what in practical terms it would cost to implement.

There was the failure to seal off Luz, something that would take literally hundreds of officers.  There was not rounding up all the tourists, and forcing them to remain in Luz until a formal statement had been obtained.  There was not diving in every abandoned well in the search area.  There was not sealing the borders by closing every crossing point, shutting airports, and manning marinas. 

Now to this, the PJ failed to add the crime of multiple illegal entries.

Does Mr Conner have a clue about how Luz worked?  From memory, the OC had an occupancy rate of about 50%, which means that half the properties were empty and locked.  Luz was stuffed with villas and apartments that mirror this.

Has Mr Connor built into his calculation that people over here drive cars, vans and motorbikes on a routine basis?  That by the time of the very first call to the GNR Madeleine could have been in a boat and leaving the country?  That by the time the PJ arrived Madeleine could have been driven to Spain or to Lisbon?

These "massive initial response" scenarios all have 2 key elements.  First, that the word of the parent's should have simply have been accepted as true, despite there being no sign whatsoever of a break-in, and despite the stats about those most likely to be involved in a child's disappearance.  Second, that truly gigantic amounts of time and resources should have been thrown at this.

I do not believe Mr Connor has done the most basic of cost-benefit analyses on this.  This idea never gets near to getting off the ground.

There definitely are things that could have been done better.  This is not one.

By the way, I should have added magic forensics and DNA that was supposedly about to crack the case.  And when did phone triangulation first emerge, also supposedly about to crack the case in 2007?  Pity there was no DNA database at the time, and there's no triangulation in the phone files, but why let facts get in the way of a good story?

                                      Don't they have search warrants in Portugal??
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline G-Unit

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #1228 on: January 25, 2016, 06:41:37 PM »
                                      Don't they have search warrants in Portugal??

Same thing?

You get permission from the owner to search.  Or you get a court order, which would not be issued without some evidence more solid than the premises are locked.  Empty premises are normally locked.
Read and abide by the forum rules.
Result = happy posting.
Ignore and break the rules
Result = edits, deletions and unhappiness
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?board=2.0

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #1229 on: January 25, 2016, 06:44:34 PM »
                                      Don't they have search warrants in Portugal??

SiL posted.snip>>>>>
The law in Portugal does not allow the police to break and enter.  That happens to be a crime here, just as it is in the UK.  You get permission from the owner to search.  Or you get a court order, which would not be issued without some evidence more solid than the premises are locked.  Empty premises are normally locked.<<<<< snip

Just what pray do you think a search warrant is if not a court order? Search warrants are issued by the magistrates court.
In England and Wales a "search warrant" is issued for an identified premises or all premises owned by the person named on the warrant, not on some kind of scatter gun approach for any premises that takes your fancy.
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey