Author Topic: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?  (Read 217987 times)

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Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #1275 on: January 26, 2016, 10:49:30 PM »
I wonder what particular feature made the abductor single out Madeleine?
There were plenty of other children about the resort so why pick out Madeleine?
I actually think this is a very astute question.  Let me re-phrase it.  Was Madeleine 'the chosen one', which sounds rather ghoulish?  Or was Madeleine simply one option of many that fitted a profile?

8 children in block 5 in the Payne booking, 7 of them girls under 4.  Would any one of the girls have been "sufficient"?  Or was only Madeleine good enough?

The question is truly macabre.  But if I knew the answer, I would know one heck of a lot more about the incident than I do now.

Was Madeleine THE target, or just A target?
What's up, old man?

Offline Brietta

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #1276 on: January 26, 2016, 11:24:24 PM »
I actually think this is a very astute question.  Let me re-phrase it.  Was Madeleine 'the chosen one', which sounds rather ghoulish?  Or was Madeleine simply one option of many that fitted a profile?

8 children in block 5 in the Payne booking, 7 of them girls under 4.  Would any one of the girls have been "sufficient"?  Or was only Madeleine good enough?

The question is truly macabre.  But if I knew the answer, I would know one heck of a lot more about the incident than I do now.

Was Madeleine THE target, or just A target?

Perhaps the answer may lie within the witness statements from those who noted men or a man apparently observing the McCann apartment.
If I remember correctly, the musician was traced and eliminated ... which of the others were?
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline pegasus

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #1277 on: January 27, 2016, 12:05:08 AM »
who are you talking about?
the witness in your post Alfred which I quoted

Offline faithlilly

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #1278 on: January 30, 2016, 11:22:50 AM »
Perhaps the answer may lie within the witness statements from those who noted men or a man apparently observing the McCann apartment.
If I remember correctly, the musician was traced and eliminated ... which of the others were?

Apparently bring the operative word.
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline G-Unit

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #1279 on: January 30, 2016, 11:42:09 AM »
Apparently bring the operative word.

Observing the apartment in the daytime to what end? Most of the time the occupants were out, so not looking for a 'window of opportunity'. The quiet dark evenings were the time to observe the checkers and work out where the gaps were. No-one would have seen them either it because it was so deserted, apparently.
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Offline faithlilly

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #1280 on: January 30, 2016, 12:00:32 PM »
Observing the apartment in the daytime to what end? Most of the time the occupants were out, so not looking for a 'window of opportunity'. The quiet dark evenings were the time to observe the checkers and work out where the gaps were. No-one would have seen them either it because it was so deserted, apparently.

The McCann's apartment was at the end of the block. For anyone waiting for a lift outside it and becoming slightly bored a quick 'nosey' into the apartment's garden is perfectly understandable. If they had been further along the block and looking into the gardens there I'd say that was slightly more suspicious though no more than that.

Were the sightings of 'spotty man' etc publicised on the 2013 Crimewatch ?
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #1281 on: January 30, 2016, 12:09:18 PM »
Observing the apartment in the daytime to what end? Most of the time the occupants were out, so not looking for a 'window of opportunity'. The quiet dark evenings were the time to observe the checkers and work out where the gaps were. No-one would have seen them either it because it was so deserted, apparently.
In a pre-planned abduction scenario, it makes sense to do daytime checks to use the light to establish the layout of the intended crime scene.

If it turns out that the unlocked patio doors were the point of entry, then one needs to tie up - children left in 5A (or block 5) - parents not in 5A (thus opportunity) - and knowledge of parents leaving the patio door unlocked.

The latter comes about with a night time check only, as this group of events only happened at night time, and not during the day.

It is also the case that abducting during daylight is significantly riskier than abducting when things became quiet at night.  Thus suggesting a good squiz in the dark, checking on lighting and car and pedestrian traffic.

Day checks for layout.  Evening checks for tying things together and/or operational checks.
What's up, old man?

Offline faithlilly

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #1282 on: January 30, 2016, 12:27:07 PM »
In a pre-planned abduction scenario, it makes sense to do daytime checks to use the light to establish the layout of the intended crime scene.

If it turns out that the unlocked patio doors were the point of entry, then one needs to tie up - children left in 5A (or block 5) - parents not in 5A (thus opportunity) - and knowledge of parents leaving the patio door unlocked.

The latter comes about with a night time check only, as this group of events only happened at night time, and not during the day.

It is also the case that abducting during daylight is significantly riskier than abducting when things became quiet at night.  Thus suggesting a good squiz in the dark, checking on lighting and car and pedestrian traffic.

Day checks for layout.  Evening checks for tying things together and/or operational checks.

Not sure how they could guage the layout by looking into the garden Shining.
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #1283 on: January 30, 2016, 12:51:56 PM »
Not sure how they could guage the layout by looking into the garden Shining.
If YOU were the person planning such an abduction, would you NOT carry out such checks, in order to reduce risk and to increase the chance of success?

A number of activities DO appear to fall into this bag, whether that is the reason for them or not.  I don't place a great deal of value in them, but the fact is that some of them fit in.

A check on a nearby rear gate, seemingly with the intent of checking whether it made a noise or not.  Two men on the patio of a nearby vacant apartment.  A couple of observations of the rear of 5A.  A 'charity collector' on the rear patio of 5A.  (All of this is from memory.)

I cannot remember any report of potential observation of the front of 5A.  I cannot remember any reports of potential observation of 5A happening after dark.  Both of these would make sense in a pre-planned abduction scenario, and there does not seem to be evidence of those.
What's up, old man?

Offline faithlilly

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #1284 on: January 30, 2016, 07:35:00 PM »
If YOU were the person planning such an abduction, would you NOT carry out such checks, in order to reduce risk and to increase the chance of success?

A number of activities DO appear to fall into this bag, whether that is the reason for them or not.  I don't place a great deal of value in them, but the fact is that some of them fit in.

A check on a nearby rear gate, seemingly with the intent of checking whether it made a noise or not.  Two men on the patio of a nearby vacant apartment.  A couple of observations of the rear of 5A.  A 'charity collector' on the rear patio of 5A.  (All of this is from memory.)

I cannot remember any report of potential observation of the front of 5A.  I cannot remember any reports of potential observation of 5A happening after dark.  Both of these would make sense in a pre-planned abduction scenario, and there does not seem to be evidence of those.

Could the men on the patio be doing some maintance, the same with the individual checking the gate ?  i think it's important not to give these events any greater relevance than they deserve just because they happened around the 3rd of May. Even the most innocent of actions can be made sinister by imagining it in a criminal context.
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline G-Unit

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #1285 on: January 30, 2016, 08:02:39 PM »
If YOU were the person planning such an abduction, would you NOT carry out such checks, in order to reduce risk and to increase the chance of success?

A number of activities DO appear to fall into this bag, whether that is the reason for them or not.  I don't place a great deal of value in them, but the fact is that some of them fit in.

A check on a nearby rear gate, seemingly with the intent of checking whether it made a noise or not.  Two men on the patio of a nearby vacant apartment.  A couple of observations of the rear of 5A.  A 'charity collector' on the rear patio of 5A.  (All of this is from memory.)

Spotty pimply man was seen on 29th at 8am and on 30th at 8.15am by two different witnesses. He was seen again on 2nd May around lunchtime, again by both witnesses. I believe the PJ, who only heard about him from one of the witnesses, eliminated him. Wasn't the man seen by Mrs Fenn's niece exiting the O'Brien garden? She said blonde, but if the sun was shining Russell could be described as blonde. The hairstyle and long face are similar to Russell's.

I cannot remember any report of potential observation of the front of 5A.  I cannot remember any reports of potential observation of 5A happening after dark.  Both of these would make sense in a pre-planned abduction scenario, and there does not seem to be evidence of those.
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Offline mercury

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #1286 on: January 30, 2016, 11:19:17 PM »
Could the men on the patio be doing some maintance, the same with the individual checking the gate ?  i think it's important not to give these events any greater relevance than they deserve just because they happened around the 3rd of May. Even the most innocent of actions can be made sinister by imagining it in a criminal context.

Specially if their "really ugly" or "spotty" or look at the bougainvillea funny

Btw SIL yes there was a witness who saw a man at night at the back of 5a

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARGARET_HALL.htm

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-nannys-new-sketch-329189

ratman six months earlier, gosh!
 @)(++(*
« Last Edit: January 30, 2016, 11:23:31 PM by mercury »

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #1287 on: January 30, 2016, 11:28:10 PM »
Specially if their "really ugly" or "spotty" or look at the bougainvillea funny

Btw SIL yes there was a witness who saw a man at night at the back of 5a

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARGARET_HALL.htm

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-nannys-new-sketch-329189

ratman six months earlier, gosh!
 @)(++(*

 @)(++(* "Given that there were problems with rodents in the apartments she went out to have a look in the area at about 00.30"  *&*%£
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #1288 on: January 31, 2016, 12:47:25 AM »
Specially if their "really ugly" or "spotty" or look at the bougainvillea funny

Btw SIL yes there was a witness who saw a man at night at the back of 5a

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARGARET_HALL.htm

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-nannys-new-sketch-329189

ratman six months earlier, gosh!
 @)(++(*
According to her statement, he was out the front.  Under a security lamp.  Which does not seem to have existed at the time.

According to The Mirror, he was out the back, and was seen. Under a security lamp. Which does not seem to have existed at the time.

Let's play Devils advocate.  What is on offer here?  He was out the front.  He was out the back.  He was illuminated by a security light.  Apparently, it only illuminated the points of his shoes, before he stepped forward.  Thus enabling a crude sketch of his features to be documented.

If you enjoy this type of story, please send your CV to Hollywood.  They need people with extremely vivid imaginations.

The problem with the Madeleine case is that these tales exist, in their abundance.

No offence is intended to Mercury, as this is not a tale by Mercury, merely a statement that such tales are in circulation.
What's up, old man?

Offline puglove

Re: Was the PJ's biggest mistake not testing the twins straight away?
« Reply #1289 on: January 31, 2016, 01:00:54 AM »
According to her statement, he was out the front.  Under a security lamp.  Which does not seem to have existed at the time.

According to The Mirror, he was out the back, and was seen. Under a security lamp. Which does not seem to have existed at the time.

Let's play Devils advocate.  What is on offer here?  He was out the front.  He was out the back.  He was illuminated by a security light.  Apparently, it only illuminated the points of his shoes, before he stepped forward.  Thus enabling a crude sketch of his features to be documented.

If you enjoy this type of story, please send your CV to Hollywood.  They need people with extremely vivid imaginations.

The problem with the Madeleine case is that these tales exist, in their abundance.

No offence is intended to Mercury, as this is not a tale by Mercury, merely a statement that such tales are in circulation.

No offence to anyone, presumably. But a small child has gone. Why do you use it as some sort of entertainmernt?
Jeremy Bamber kicked Mike Tesko in the fanny.