So what can Cadaver and CSI dogs tell us?

[G-Unit]

Whatever the fragment found in Jersey was, it seems the assertions that Eddie alerted specifically to it cannot be substantiated.

[Mr Gray]

Whatever the fragment found in Jersey was, it seems the assertions that Eddie alerted specifically to it cannot be substantiated.

so we have no idea if the alert was correct or not

[Carana]

We have no major concerns about the overall
management of investigation costs prior to the
discovery of JAR/6 on 23 February 2008.
ƒ
The statement to the media immediately following discovery of JAR/6 undoubtedly caused the investigation to shift from being a child abuse investigation to a child homicide investigation.
ƒ
We question whether a statement should have been made to the media prior to a peer review of the find having taken place, or scientific confirmation having been received.
ƒ
The announcement to the media of the find of JAR/6, described as ‘the partial remains of a child’ led to the unprecedented statement by the former Chief Minister that all necessary resources would be made available to SOJP; this appears to have been interpreted by many to mean that ‘money was no object’.
ƒ
And immediately after the discovery and the statement by the former Chief Minister, the pace, scale and cost
of the investigation accelerated very rapidly and significantly; and in a far more costly and unstructured way.

[ferryman]

Whatever the fragment found in Jersey was, it seems the assertions that Eddie alerted specifically to it cannot be substantiated.

The dishonesty of apologists for Grime (himself dishonest) really is quite breathtaking.

In the 'old days' (not so many days ago!) the mantra was that Eddie must have alerted to a skull, because the exhibit at the centre of discussion contained collagen.

Presented with irrefutable evidence (not from a tabloid newspaper, but from an official police report) that the exhibit in question was demonstrably devoid of collagen, what happens?

Eddie no longer alerted to it.

Unbelievable ....

[Eleanor]

I'm not sure if this is Off Topic or not.  But it's jolly good stuff.

[ferryman]

Where did this 100% track record idea come from?

Concerning Jersey, if you'd said that Eddie had found some teeth and a couple of old bones (irrelevant to the investigation), I'd have agreed with you, as he did.

I also agree with you that coconuts don't contain collagen. The problem is... the lack of it was one of the reasons as to why the fragment was ruled out as being a skull fragment.

Are you familiar with the Wiltshire report?


5.6.20 X (ORAU) reported that the Jersey sample only had 0.6 % N. Ordinarily this is too low to yield extractable collagen of any quality. Despite our concerns, X requested that a fuller chemical treatment be undertaken, in an attempt to produce a result, but although some material was extracted it was demonstrably not collagenous based on the analysis of the texture of the material, the C:N atomic ratios and the similarly significant lack of nitrogen, so the sample was formally failed and the States of Jersey Police notified.

5.6.21 A further analysis of the bone sample later the following week by
X and X (British Museum faunal specialist and one of our collaborators in work undertaken in the ORAU) concluded that the sample was not in fact bone, but was almost certainly wood.


http://www.gov.je/Government/Pages/StatesReports.aspx?ReportID=561
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1999.20

In response to what I underline, I'll tell you where it came from Carana, Grime's profile.

In fairness, Grime was misquoted.  He said that in over 200 operational deployment (actually 37, but let's not get distracted), the dog had never once alerted to the scent of a dead wild animal or to food.

From that came the mantra that Eddie never alerted falsely.

I suppose Grime can't be blamed for the interpretation others place on his words.  But I don't ever recall him rushing to correct the misinterpretation ....

[Carana]

There was an initial report of 1.6% N (a correlate for collagen) somewhere, but that wasn't the final corroborated result.

[ferryman]

There was an initial report of 1.6% N (a correlate for collagen) somewhere, but that wasn't the final corroborated result.

Somewhere in that report is a description of the sequence of events leading up to the inspection of the exhibit, and of the inspection itself.

Still searching for that ....

[Carana]

Whatever the fragment found in Jersey was, it seems the assertions that Eddie alerted specifically to it cannot be substantiated.

I don't have time to check further right now.

For what it's worth, I don't believe that Eddie reacted to a coconut. It's perfectly possible that he reacted to a scent absorbed by it, possibly even the remnant scent of pork, for example, if the coconut had been part of a meal and kitchen waste had been swept together.

He did indeed help to locate a few old bones and some teeth - so he did alert correctly in those instances. What I don't understand is why some people keep insisting that JAR/6 was a skull fragment when it clearly wasn't.

The bottom line still seems to be that Lenny Harper got over-excited and blabbed to the media before the full results had come in. Once he had blabbed, it was difficult to backtrack. And things went downhill from there.

Unless, of course, one is into conspiracy theories of a substitute coconut...

[Carana]

Somewhere in that report is a description of the sequence of events leading up to the inspection of the exhibit, and of the inspection itself.

Still searching for that ....

Yes, we may have the same recollection of the sequence of events, but I can't lay my hands on it for the moment.

[G-Unit]

The dishonesty of apologists for Grime (himself dishonest) really is quite breathtaking.

In the 'old days' (not so many days ago!) the mantra was that Eddie must have alerted to a skull, because the exhibit at the centre of discussion contained collagen.

Presented with irrefutable evidence (not from a tabloid newspaper, but from an official police report) that the exhibit in question was demonstrably devoid of collagen, what happens?

Eddie no longer alerted to it.

Unbelievable ....

I object to being called dishonest. I have never said that Eddie alerted to this fragment. In a previous discussion I asked for a cite that he did, and I never got one, just as I have asked again and haven't got one. The solution is in the hands of those who say he did, just give the cite.

[G-Unit]

Cadaver dogs can tell us where an underwater body may be;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-30431322

[Carana]

I object to being called dishonest. I have never said that Eddie alerted to this fragment. In a previous discussion I asked for a cite that he did, and I never got one, just as I have asked again and haven't got one. The solution is in the hands of those who say he did, just give the cite.

Some people (I don't recall you ever saying so) insist that Eddie correctly alerted to a human skull fragment. Perhaps they could provide the substantiation that he did indeed alert specifically to that exhibit.

[G-Unit]

Using their extraordinary sense of smell, dogs undergo intensive and extended training to detect human remains – a skill that can lead to convictions and closure

Specifically, the dogs are trained to smell decomposition, which means they can locate body parts, tissue, blood and bone. They can also detect residue scents, meaning they can tell if a body has been in a place, even if it’s not there any more.

In October 2013, a jury in Illinois convicted Aurelio Montano, 58, of the first-degree murder of his wife, despite the lack of a body, due in part to evidence provided by cadaver dogs who detected the scent of human remains on a rug.

searches are far more efficient when using a cadaver dog; they allow the police to cover a larger area at a faster rate than searches using police officers alone, while also freeing up manpower.

Sabre moves purposefully in the right direction almost immediately, then hurries back and forth between the camp’s huts trying to catch the strongest scent from the hidden Tupperware container. When Sabre reaches the dining building, he weaves up the pathway with his nose to the ground and ears pricked, and scratches at the door. Hreniuk intervenes only to open the door and he continues his search.

He checks the cupboard once then goes back for a second sniff; he pauses and looks at Hreniuk who gives nothing away. Human spectators stay dutifully silent to avoid giving any inadvertent clues.

He scratches at the cupboard door and barks at Hreniuk once, twice, three times. His barks are his trained indication, letting Hreniuk know that he has found what he’s looking for.

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/sep/08/cadaver-dogs-trained-to-smell-death

[stephen25000]

The continuing attack on Martin Grime and the indications of the dogs AGAIN, merely reinforce the lack of evidence of abduction, and therefore the need by some people to continue to pursue Grime.

Whatever, the fragment was in jersey, contamination from other sources could easily have occurred, including from human remains.