Cartridges and Cartridge Cases (CC) Seized From WHF And Sent To Lab.

[Holly Goodhead]

Various terms are used for the above so to clarify:

Catridges aka bullets and ammunition

Cartridge Cases (CC) aka casings.

The CoA doc states NB purchased 500 rounds of ammunition but no detail what type of ammunition, for which weapon(s) or when the purchase took place.

13. The rifle was a .22 Anshutz automatic rifle. Together with a Parker Hale sound moderator (silencer) and telescopic sights, it had been bought by Nevill Bamber on 30 November 1984. 500 rounds of ammunition had also been purchased.

WS from Robert Radcliffe the gun dealer who sold NB the rifle, silencer and sights makes no reference to the ammunition:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=531.0;attach=1673

JB claimed he took a box of ammunition and tipped the cartridges out on the kitchen worktop.  He claimed the seal was broken but the box fairly full.  Based on the manufacturers marketing it appears a full box contains 50 cartridges but I haven't seen any confirmation of this for the box at WHF.  He then claimed the magazine was empty and he loaded 8 to 10 cartridges.  How reliable is this?  Eg Was it empty?  Did he insert 8 - 10 cartridges or was it less?  Is 10 the max?  Does this include 1 in the breach?  Although it probably doesn't matter since he claimed he didn't fire any shots.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5632.0;attach=4570

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5632.0;attach=4572

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5632.0;attach=4574

In total 25 cartridges were discharged.  And it appears 29 cartridges were recovered from the worktop based on the following statement:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=197.0;attach=659

I guess confirmation is needed to determine how many cartridges were in a full box.  If 50 there appears to be an anomaly:

- JB states the seal was broken and the box nearly full
- 25 cartridges fired
- 29 recovered from worktop
- 1 cartridge still in the box

At point 32 of CoA doc it states "A quantity of .22 shells was beside it".  Other documents indicate one cartridge was found in the box and 29 cartridges on the worktop.

What does all this mean?  If a box contains 50 cartridges and 25 shots were fired with 29 remaining on the kitchen top and 1 in the box this totals 55!?  Plus JB said the box wasn't full!? 

Although JB claims he left cartridges in the magazine NB might have emptied the cartridges and put them elsewhere with other supplies?

Maybe the perp used cartridges from elsewhere?

The relatives recovered a bag of ammunition (I think) from the gun cupboard but I haven't seen a breakdown?

My head is hurting   

[scipio_usmc]

This is for you Holly, he describes the ammo as Eley subsonic 22 RF Hollowpoints so you got a little bit answered:

[scipio_usmc]

JB claimed he took a box of ammunition and tipped the cartridges out on the kitchen worktop.  He claimed the seal was broken but the box fairly full.  Based on the manufacturers marketing it appears a full box contains 50 cartridges but I haven't seen any confirmation of this for the box at WHF.  He then claimed the magazine was empty and he loaded 8 to 10 cartridges.  How reliable is this?  Eg Was it empty?  Did he insert 8 - 10 cartridges or was it less?  Is 10 the max?  Does this include 1 in the breach?  Although it probably doesn't matter since he claimed he didn't fire any shots.

I guess confirmation is needed to determine how many cartridges were in a full box.  If 50 there appears to be an anomaly:

- JB states the seal was broken and the box nearly full
- 25 cartridges fired
- 29 recovered from worktop
- 1 cartridge still in the box

At point 32 of CoA doc it states "A quantity of .22 shells was beside it".  Other documents indicate one cartridge was found in the box and 29 cartridges on the worktop.

What does all this mean?  If a box contains 50 cartridges and 25 shots were fired with 29 remaining on the kitchen top and 1 in the box this totals 55!?  Plus JB said the box wasn't full!? 

Although JB claims he left cartridges in the magazine NB might have emptied the cartridges and put them elsewhere with other supplies?

Maybe the perp used cartridges from elsewhere?

The relatives recovered a bag of ammunition (I think) from the gun cupboard but I haven't seen a breakdown?

My head is hurting 

Yes the boxes contained 50 rounds when full.

There was something on the order of 300 rounds left in the closet. 

Jeremy made up the whole rabbit story but if true:

A) Pours out a full or virtually full box of ammo in the kitchen by the phone so 47-50 rounds
B) loads 10 rounds so 37-40 rounds max remain
C) removes the magazine, ejects cartridge from chamber and reloads it into the magazine so magazine is next to gun with 10 rounds in it.
D) 37-40 rounds are besides the phone when Sheila and June use it
E) 25 shots are fired the 10 Jeremy left in the magazine and 15 more.
F) 30 rounds remained in the kitchen after the killings so 7-10 rounds from the kitchen were used and 5-8 rounds from elsewhere.

This is if Jeremy claims are all true.  If his story is true then 7-10 rounds were used from the kitchen supply and 5-8 from somewhere else.

Would June leave these bullets out by the phone?  I don't believe she would so that right there is knock one against his story that he dumped the out around 8:30.  But it is even less credible that the killer would use some bullets from that supply but opt to go get 5-8 more from the closet.

Either Jeremy grabbed that box after the murders and staged those bullets or he used some ammunition from another supply as well as that box during the course of the murders.

There are two reasons why a magazine is not usually kept loaded:

1) it is dangerous to leave a gun loaded

2) the spring on the magazine weakens if you leave it loaded and then it can mis-feed so it is best to leave them unloaded until about to use it.

So Jeremy finding the gun empty is the only part of the story credible and indeed Anthony found it unloaded too.

A related issue is that the scope was always kept attached to the gun there was no reason to remove it even during cleaning there was no need to remove the scope. So his claim he found it with the scope removed wasn't credible.

Similarly the moderator was kept attached normally. He lied saying it didn't fit int he closet with the moderator attached and when that was proven false later lied saying it didn't fit in its case. The lie was it didn't have a case.
So instead of just saying it was not attached because he removed it for some random reason he made up lies for why it would not be attached.  Being caught in a lie is worse and he made up these lies before they knew the full significance of the moderator even.

Then you have the issue that he was not known to shoot rabbits and gave varying accounts of the story- he heard the rabbits he saw the from the kitchen he saw them while outside on the way to the house...

All of these things have to be looked at in evaluating his story about getting the gun out, loading it and leaving the gun and bullets out.  Why would he not load it in the office where he got the bullets instead of wasting time to go in the kitchen it he was in a hurry as claimed?

None of it makes sense and then you have the bullet discrepancy which seems to seal the deal that the story was made up to simply pretend Sheila would have easy access.  He didn't even bother to pretend he felt responsible for leaving it out like someone in his place would do if that actually happened.  Ann mentioned how it made her suspicious that he didn't blame himself for such. He was an inconsistent actor to be sure.

I think this is very damning when you add it to the other evidence because evidence compounds.  This is evidence of Jeremy lying and staging must like his phone call claims are evidence of such. 

Just saying he knew nothing and making the bodies be found in the morning would leave less evidence of his involvement, that is the real irony.   

 

[Holly Goodhead]

This is for you Holly, he describes the ammo as Eley subsonic 22 RF Hollowpoints so you got a little bit answered:

Brill, thanks.  I think I remember the above now from time spent on Blue.  Also there's no mention of "Xtra" or "Plus".  It appears the cartridges used were based on this product:

http://www.eley.co.uk/eley-subsonic-hollow

[Holly Goodhead]

Why wouldn't June leave bullets by the phone if she was happy to have menstrual stained underwear in the kitchen soaking in buckets?  It was/is a working farm and June had grown up living on a working farm and so had previous generations of her family.  I would imagine cartridges hanging around were very much the norm.  WHF wasn't/isn't suburbia.

[scipio_usmc]

Brill, thanks.  I think I remember the above now from time spent on Blue.  Also there's no mention of "Xtra" or "Plus".  It appears the cartridges used were based on this product:

http://www.eley.co.uk/eley-subsonic-hollow

The Subsonic Hollowpoint Extra plus and Subsonic Hollowpoint are the same exact thing simply different packaging for the same product. Eley periodically changes their packaging and the name of their products though there is no change in the product itself.

Eley's 1960s/70s packaging was a cardboard box with a removable plastic tray inside which is how most ammo was packaged.  In the late 1970s they began selling plastic boxes with a sliding top. That's what Nevill purchased. The part that slides is what told you the name of the product. The crime scene photos don't show the sliding panel unfortunately. 

There is a photo from the Defense experts showing the Eley Extra Plus packaging but we don't know for sure when they took it and whether they used such because it was the exact packaging or not.  Mike lies too much to trust him on the issue.

In all likelihood this was the 1980s packaging when Nevill purchased:



The green part with the advertising slides off.  In the photos of the bullets next to the phone the sliding top is missing.

This matches what the seller stated Eley 22RF long rifle subsonic hollow so in all likelihood is the exact packaging Nevill purchased.  However, people commonly use the old name even after Eley changes names by adding extra etc to the product name so we have to be careful to make too many assumptions.  The seller could have ignored that they recently changed to calling it Extra plus at the time and still just called it the generic subsonic hollow-points. His statement makes it sound like he wrote down verbatim what was on the box so I personally think this is the packaging but want confirmation before saying this is a confirmed fact.  I tried to get Eley to confirm when the changeover took place and what they were selling in 1985 but naturally they need someone to research that and never got back to me because they don't want to be bothered wasting time or resources on such request.

There might be photos of the unfired boxes of ammunition that demonstrate the name but that Mike refuses to post.  He made up that the bullets were 35 grain and doesn't want to post packaging that is associated with 40 grain rounds. Some of the bullet fragments are more than 35 grain. His lie that the complete bullets are 35 grain is used to say the bullet fragments must be from police bullets because the fragments weigh more than a complete bullet purchased by Nevill. The police didn't use 22LR rounds so this argument is absurd but that never stops Mike and he even denies they are 22LR even though the defense's own ballistic expert agreed they were. Mike doesn't let facts and evidence stand in the way of allegations he chooses to make.   

When they change their packaging they relocate to the other side usually.  In the above the shooter is to the left side of the packaging.  The packaging subsequent to the above features a bulls eye target over shooters who are on the right side.  Their most recent packaging just features a bulls eye target but relocated to the left side.  They use the same format pretty much for their entire line.  This helps somewhat in dating the packaging. It would help if we knew when they discontinued the above packaging.  I think it was after the murders but can't get confirmation on that. 

 

[Holly Goodhead]

The Subsonic Hollowpoint Extra plus and Subsonic Hollowpoint are the same exact thing simply different packaging for the same product. Eley periodically changes their packaging and the name of their products though there is no change in the product itself.

Eley's 1960s/70s packaging was a cardboard box with a removable plastic tray inside which is how most ammo was packaged.  In the late 1970s they began selling plastic boxes with a sliding top. That's what Nevill purchased. The part that slides is what told you the name of the product. The crime scene photos don't show the sliding panel unfortunately. 

There is a photo from the Defense experts showing the Eley Extra Plus packaging but we don't know for sure when they took it and whether they used such because it was the exact packaging or not.  Mike lies too much to trust him on the issue.

In all likelihood this was the 1980s packaging when Nevill purchased:



The green part with the advertising slides off.  In the photos of the bullets next to the phone the sliding top is missing.

This matches what the seller stated Eley 22RF long rifle subsonic hollow so in all likelihood is the exact packaging Nevill purchased.  However, people commonly use the old name even after Eley changes names by adding extra etc to the product name so we have to be careful to make too many assumptions.  The seller could have ignored that they recently changed to calling it Extra plus at the time and still just called it the generic subsonic hollow-points. His statement makes it sound like he wrote down verbatim what was on the box so I personally think this is the packaging but want confirmation before saying this is a confirmed fact.  I tried to get Eley to confirm when the changeover took place and what they were selling in 1985 but naturally they need someone to research that and never got back to me because they don't want to be bothered wasting time or resources on such request.

There might be photos of the unfired boxes of ammunition that demonstrate the name but that Mike refuses to post.  He made up that the bullets were 35 grain and doesn't want to post packaging that is associated with 40 grain rounds. Some of the bullet fragments are more than 35 grain. His lie that the complete bullets are 35 grain is used to say the bullet fragments must be from police bullets because the fragments weigh more than a complete bullet purchased by Nevill. The police didn't use 22LR rounds so this argument is absurd but that never stops Mike and he even denies they are 22LR even though the defense's own ballistic expert agreed they were. Mike doesn't let facts and evidence stand in the way of allegations he chooses to make.   

When they change their packaging they relocate to the other side usually.  In the above the shooter is to the left side of the packaging.  The packaging subsequent to the above features a bulls eye target over shooters who are on the right side.  Their most recent packaging just features a bulls eye target but relocated to the left side.  They use the same format pretty much for their entire line.  This helps somewhat in dating the packaging. It would help if we knew when they discontinued the above packaging.  I think it was after the murders but can't get confirmation on that.

Eley dealt with my email request for info.  I also spoke with the marketing exec on the phone.  What exactly would you like to know and I will try to obtain further email confirmation?

I don't believe the product includes the words "Xtra" and "Plus" in the packaging as neither the gun shop or Malcolm Fletcher make reference to this:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6964.msg299806#msg299806

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=197.0;attach=659

But I can try and confirm with Eley.  I noticed on one image you produced it contained a barcode so maybe traceable from this if it was put on by Eley?  Although unlikely after 30 plus years.

If the Bamber owned bullets were coated with parrafin wax as a bullet lubricant this completely contradicts Malcolm Fletcher's interview with CAL where he refers to beeswax:

http://www.eley.co.uk/eley-subsonic-hollow

I've taken CAL's interview with MF as follows:

I find the book reliable as CAL quotes her sources and if wrong the publishers could potentially be sued.  I would have thought after she interviewed the likes of Malolm Fletcher she asked him to sign off the contents of their interview.

"Ballistics expert Malcolm Fletcher recalls: 'The ammunition used to carry out the murders was Eley Subsonic. The bullets themselves were coated with beeswax, which was quite unusual. When you handled them you got a sort of black grease on your hands and when they were discharged, small specks of grease or wax were emitted, not just with the bullet but from the ejection port as well. It would be very visible'."

"Forensic scientist Brian Elliot recorded 'very low levels of lead' from Sheila's hand swabs. Comparison tests with two members of laboratory staff who loaded a total of eighteen cartridges into the magazine from the rifle, showed significantly higher levels of lead. Elliot concluded: 'I would expect hands of a person loading cartridges into the rifle to bear appreciable deposits of lead. No such deposits have been found on the hand swabs from Sheila Caffell".

"But Fletcher remains confident that wax discharged from the fired bullets would have resulted in 'some of the material ending up on the shooter. I tested the surface of Sheila's nightdress and I got no indication, either visual or chemical, of lead or wax material. I would have expected to find it especially with the number of shots that were fired. I tested it thoroughly and there was no evidence of the spots of waxy material that showed up on the test fires'."

"On 29 April, defence firearms expert Freddie Mead asked to examine the rifle, silencer, bullets, cartridge cases, clothing, x-rays and photographs at the laboratory in Huntingdon. Malcolm Fletcher recalls: 'What they did was they got Freddie Mead to load cartridges into the magazine without touching the bullet, which is all fine and good - yes, you can do it, but its contrived. You've got to put the base of the cartridge case in and then press it and slide it down without touching the bullet itself, which isn't easy. Once you get up to the ninth and tenth cartridge its damn near impossible."

"Fletchers colleague Glynis Howard gave evidence next, followed by Brian Elliot, who told the court about very low levels of lead detected from Sheila's hand swabs. Rivlin counter-acted his testimony by referring to ritualistic washing again and drawing Elliot's attention to traces of other elements, iron and copper, in the test results. The scientist responded that these were no higher than might be ordinarily obtained from the atmosphere".

"The jury also requested an opportunity to see for themselves how much oil and other residues might be left on the hands of someone loading bullets into the Anschutz magazine. They were permitted to conduct an experiment in a nearby room".

[scipio_usmc]

Eley dealt with my email request for info.  I also spoke with the marketing exec on the phone.  What exactly would you like to know and I will try to obtain further email confirmation?

I don't believe the product includes the words "Xtra" and "Plus" in the packaging as neither the gun shop or Malcolm Fletcher make reference to this:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6964.msg299806#msg299806

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=197.0;attach=659

But I can try and confirm with Eley.  I noticed on one image you produced it contained a barcode so maybe traceable from this if it was put on by Eley?  Although unlikely after 30 plus years.

If the Bamber owned bullets were coated with parrafin wax as a bullet lubricant this completely contradicts Malcolm Fletcher's interview with CAL where he refers to beeswax:

http://www.eley.co.uk/eley-subsonic-hollow

I've taken CAL's interview with MF as follows:

I find the book reliable as CAL quotes her sources and if wrong the publishers could potentially be sued.  I would have thought after she interviewed the likes of Malolm Fletcher she asked him to sign off the contents of their interview.

"Ballistics expert Malcolm Fletcher recalls: 'The ammunition used to carry out the murders was Eley Subsonic. The bullets themselves were coated with beeswax, which was quite unusual. When you handled them you got a sort of black grease on your hands and when they were discharged, small specks of grease or wax were emitted, not just with the bullet but from the ejection port as well. It would be very visible'."

"Forensic scientist Brian Elliot recorded 'very low levels of lead' from Sheila's hand swabs. Comparison tests with two members of laboratory staff who loaded a total of eighteen cartridges into the magazine from the rifle, showed significantly higher levels of lead. Elliot concluded: 'I would expect hands of a person loading cartridges into the rifle to bear appreciable deposits of lead. No such deposits have been found on the hand swabs from Sheila Caffell".

"But Fletcher remains confident that wax discharged from the fired bullets would have resulted in 'some of the material ending up on the shooter. I tested the surface of Sheila's nightdress and I got no indication, either visual or chemical, of lead or wax material. I would have expected to find it especially with the number of shots that were fired. I tested it thoroughly and there was no evidence of the spots of waxy material that showed up on the test fires'."

"On 29 April, defence firearms expert Freddie Mead asked to examine the rifle, silencer, bullets, cartridge cases, clothing, x-rays and photographs at the laboratory in Huntingdon. Malcolm Fletcher recalls: 'What they did was they got Freddie Mead to load cartridges into the magazine without touching the bullet, which is all fine and good - yes, you can do it, but its contrived. You've got to put the base of the cartridge case in and then press it and slide it down without touching the bullet itself, which isn't easy. Once you get up to the ninth and tenth cartridge its damn near impossible."

"Fletchers colleague Glynis Howard gave evidence next, followed by Brian Elliot, who told the court about very low levels of lead detected from Sheila's hand swabs. Rivlin counter-acted his testimony by referring to ritualistic washing again and drawing Elliot's attention to traces of other elements, iron and copper, in the test results. The scientist responded that these were no higher than might be ordinarily obtained from the atmosphere".

"The jury also requested an opportunity to see for themselves how much oil and other residues might be left on the hands of someone loading bullets into the Anschutz magazine. They were permitted to conduct an experiment in a nearby room".

Eley's lubricant is a tallow beeswax. It does leave the marks he described. Some people generically use the term paraffin for any lubricant on a bullet even if it is not actually made of paraffin.  This is why one has to ask precise questions to understand what people are referring to.  You will hear people call a revolver a pistol though technically it is not a pistol is a semi-auto and both are handguns yet many use pistol and handgun as synonymous terms.  Rivlin incorrectly called the Anshutz a shotgun in one of his questions we have to be aware people can mean different things than the literal meaning or even correct meaning. 

That is one of the problems with the Eley Extra plus. It commonly was called Eley subsonic hollow-points people usually did not call it Extra-plus.  The reason why is two-fold 1) they called it by the older name 2) the older name was the basic generic description of what it was anyway so there was no reason to bother calling it extra plus. The only thing to distinguish it from was solid subsonic.

I posed the following questions to Eley and they said someone would have to research it but they failed to respond with any answer beyond saying someone had to research it:

1) When did they discontinue the packaging I posted and transition to new packaging.

2) When did they begin marketing the Eley Extra plus subsonic Hollow-points and did they sell them side by side with the above or were the above discontinued and replaced completely by the new product as opposed to slowly phased out.

3) When did they discontinue 37.5 grain Eley Subsonic Hollow-points and exclusively sell 40 grain.

 

[Holly Goodhead]

Eley's lubricant is a tallow beeswax. It does leave the marks he described. Some people generically use the term paraffin for any lubricant on a bullet even if it is not actually made of paraffin.  This is why one has to ask precise questions to understand what people are referring to.  You will hear people call a revolver a pistol though technically it is not a pistol is a semi-auto and both are handguns yet many use pistol and handgun as synonymous terms.  Rivlin incorrectly called the Anshutz a shotgun in one of his questions we have to be aware people can mean different things than the literal meaning or even correct meaning. 

That is one of the problems with the Eley Extra plus. It commonly was called Eley subsonic hollow-points people usually did not call it Extra-plus.  The reason why is two-fold 1) they called it by the older name 2) the older name was the basic generic description of what it was anyway so there was no reason to bother calling it extra plus. The only thing to distinguish it from was solid subsonic.

I posed the following questions to Eley and they said someone would have to research it but they failed to respond with any answer beyond saying someone had to research it:

1) When did they discontinue the packaging I posted and transition to new packaging.

2) When did they begin marketing the Eley Extra plus subsonic Hollow-points and did they sell them side by side with the above or were the above discontinued and replaced completely by the new product as opposed to slowly phased out.

3) When did they discontinue 37.5 grain Eley Subsonic Hollow-points and exclusively sell 40 grain.

I found the website very informative.  It clearly distinguishes between the ammunition lubricated with beeswax tallow and those that use paraffin wax.  They currently manufacture 14 different types of ammunition.  If you click on each one and move to the bottom it specifies the lubricant.

http://www.Eley.co.uk/ammunition

I confirmed with Eley that the subsonic have always used paraffin wax as a lubricant.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Myster]

Eley subsonic Hollow points are lubricated with paraffin wax which is totally different than beeswax, bottom of page...  http://www.eley.co.uk/eley-subsonic-hollow

Eley Tenex and other sports cartridges are lubricated with Beeswax/Tallow... http://www.eley.co.uk/eley-tenex

[Myster]

Interesting info on Eley hollow points... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fF4nvNWxqPo

[scipio_usmc]

I found the website very informative.  It clearly distinguishes between the ammunition lubricated with beeswax tallow and those that use paraffin wax.  They currently manufacture 14 different types of ammunition.  If you click on each one and move to the bottom it specifies the lubricant.

http://www.Eley.co.uk/ammunition

I confirmed with Eley that the subsonic have always used paraffin wax as a lubricant.

They have sold subsonic hollow-points long before they had their hydrocarbon lube.  The claim they always had such lubricant is impossible, moreover people avoided using Eley Subsonic Hollow in shooting competitions because the sticky lube jammed up the match barrels.  A "match" barrel is one made to be more accurate the breech is tighter so if the round is sticky that is very bad. One of the reasons they developed the new coating it to alleviate that problem another is after the ammo sat a while the lube would dry out which made people no want to stockpile the ammo but rather wait to buy it shortly before it would be used.   

The person you spoke to doesn't know what they are talking about. That is the problem in speaking to people who are not around a very long time without access to all the records.  That is why I wanted the research department to confirm the dates with respect to my questions not just have someone guess.  We don't know how long they keep all their records.  Many companies get rid of them after 7-10 years.   Agents often can't find information or don't even look and just tell people anything they want...  You can get someone lazy, ignorant or even worse like Mike!

[Holly Goodhead]

They have sold subsonic hollow-points long before they had their hydrocarbon lube.  The claim they always had such lubricant is impossible, moreover people avoided using Eley Subsonic Hollow in shooting competitions because the sticky lube jammed up the match barrels.  A "match" barrel is one made to be more accurate the breech is tighter so if the round is sticky that is very bad. One of the reasons they developed the new coating it to alleviate that problem another is after the ammo sat a while the lube would dry out which made people no want to stockpile the ammo but rather wait to buy it shortly before it would be used.   

The person you spoke to doesn't know what they are talking about. That is the problem in speaking to people who are not around a very long time without access to all the records.  That is why I wanted the research department to confirm the dates with respect to my questions not just have someone guess.  We don't know how long they keep all their records.  Many companies get rid of them after 7-10 years.   Agents often can't find information or don't even look and just tell people anything they want...  You can get someone lazy, ignorant or even worse like Mike!

Lol.  The person I spoke with, Elizabeth Short - marketing communications executive, sounded reliable and competent.  In any event as you can see from the email she checked with the technical department before providing an answer.

I'm not sure why anyone would want to use subsonic hollow in shooting competitions since its main purpose is for shooting vermin!?  The lubricant is designed for all weathers and to reduce residues.

The CoA doc 2002 even refers to "similar" and the "same" bullets used in tests:

177. At trial Brian Elliott, a scientist from the Home Office Forensic Science Laboratory, gave evidence that the item DRH/33 described as "Swabbing Kit – hands of Sheila Caffell" had been received at the laboratory on 13 September 1985. He said that tests had been carried out for the presence of lead and that only "very low levels of lead have been detected on the two hand swabs". He further reported that tests had been carried out on two members of the laboratory staff who had loaded eighteen cartridges, similar to those used to shoot those who died at White House Farm, into the magazine of the rifle, and "significantly higher levels of lead" had been detected. Clearly if this evidence was right it cast doubt upon Sheila Caffell having loaded the cartridges into the gun and thus to her having killed the others and then herself.

215. At trial Mr Elliott had given evidence of the results of testing the swabs for lead, which included information about other elements detectable on the swab. He had also given evidence of the comparative tests carried out on other scientists after they had handled ammunition from the same source as that used in the killings and loaded it into the magazine. The tests were said to demonstrate appreciably higher lead levels on the scientists' hands than were found on the swabs taken from the hands of Sheila Caffell. This was put forward as evidence that Sheila Caffell had not handled the cartridges in a manner consistent with her being the killer.
 

[scipio_usmc]

Lol.  The person I spoke with, Elizabeth Short - marketing communications executive, sounded reliable and competent.  In any event as you can see from the email she checked with the technical department before providing an answer.

I'm not sure why anyone would want to use subsonic hollow in shooting competitions since its main purpose is for shooting vermin!?  The lubricant is designed for all weathers and to reduce residues.

The CoA doc 2002 even refers to "similar" and the "same" bullets used in tests:

177. At trial Brian Elliott, a scientist from the Home Office Forensic Science Laboratory, gave evidence that the item DRH/33 described as "Swabbing Kit – hands of Sheila Caffell" had been received at the laboratory on 13 September 1985. He said that tests had been carried out for the presence of lead and that only "very low levels of lead have been detected on the two hand swabs". He further reported that tests had been carried out on two members of the laboratory staff who had loaded eighteen cartridges, similar to those used to shoot those who died at White House Farm, into the magazine of the rifle, and "significantly higher levels of lead" had been detected. Clearly if this evidence was right it cast doubt upon Sheila Caffell having loaded the cartridges into the gun and thus to her having killed the others and then herself.

215. At trial Mr Elliott had given evidence of the results of testing the swabs for lead, which included information about other elements detectable on the swab. He had also given evidence of the comparative tests carried out on other scientists after they had handled ammunition from the same source as that used in the killings and loaded it into the magazine. The tests were said to demonstrate appreciably higher lead levels on the scientists' hands than were found on the swabs taken from the hands of Sheila Caffell. This was put forward as evidence that Sheila Caffell had not handled the cartridges in a manner consistent with her being the killer.
 

Similar and consistent with are used all the time and can mean same but not always.  Same is used in the COA to mean they used the actual bullets from the kitchen for testing.  This is significant because there is slight variation among different batches but these were the same exact batch while the other boxes in the closet might have been from different batches.  Any slight variation would not be likely to make a difference anyway. 

For all we know Jeremy used ammunition for a different box and just dumped out this box in the kitchen- that would obviously mean the tested bullets weren't the actual supply after all but doesn't really matter.

I suspect they used some of the ammunition for the closet for their tests but none of the documents released publicly say. It seems odd if they would decide to preserve all the closet ammunition while expending most of the ammunition that was in the kitchen.

[Holly Goodhead]

Similar and consistent with are used all the time and can mean same but not always.  Same is used in the COA to mean they used the actual bullets from the kitchen for testing.  This is significant because there is slight variation among different batches but these were the same exact batch while the other boxes in the closet might have been from different batches.  Any slight variation would not be likely to make a difference anyway. 

For all we know Jeremy used ammunition for a different box and just dumped out this box in the kitchen- that would obviously mean the tested bullets weren't the actual supply after all but doesn't really matter.

I suspect they used some of the ammunition for the closet for their tests but none of the documents released publicly say. It seems odd if they would decide to preserve all the closet ammunition while expending most of the ammunition that was in the kitchen.

It strikes me that there are so many assumptions based on thin air.   I had until the last day or so thought the perp used the cartridges on the kitchen worktop but this makes little sense when the numbers just don't add up.

I don't think the cartridges on the worktop were used in the handling tests as 23 of the 30 cartridges were used in connection with test firing:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=197.0;attach=659

This would mean only 7 cartridges were avaialble for the handling test and we know the perp must have loaded at least 15. 

I know the mag takes a max of 10 does this still allow for a bullet in the breech?  Ie 9 in the mag and 1 in the breech or 10 in the mag and 1 in the breech?  Or am I showing my ignorance and I've got it completely wrong?

Also it was only when you said SC may have innocently touched the cartridges whilst talking with Auntie Pam on the phone that I realised the the conversation may have taken place in the kitchen.  I had always imagined it taking place in the lounge.  Did WHF have tel points in rooms other than kitchen, office and main bedroom?