Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb

[ShiningInLuz]

Any more?

Well, yes, we have the recollections of Gerry and Kate McCann.

Unfortunately for the claims about the alleged high tea, their statements disagree with each other and furthermore contradict those of Cat Baker.

I say 'those' of Cat Baker because she made two statements. The one you quote was made on 18 April 2008. By that time, she had had 351 days to think about her answers.

It was a funny affair that high tea. So the cook saw Madeleine at 4.30pm? Gerry says he got there at 4.45pm. The crèche sheets, it is claimed, were taken to the Tapas restaurant that day and apparently signed by Kate at 5.25 (twins) and IIRC Gerry at 5.30 (Madeleine). But one of the staff said that they were all enjoying themselves so much that they carried on until 6.00pm.

Given that Madeleine was, according to Kate, 'pale', 'worn out' and 'exhausted' ('madeleine', Kate McCann, pp. 66-7), it's perhaps surprising that Gerry didn't notice this and take Madeleine back earlier. Then we learn ('madeleine', p. 67) that the three children all went back with Mummy and Daddy to the apartment, with Kate 'carrying Madeleine', despite a hearty jog just earlier, and Gerry presumably sauntering along with the twins while his wife was carrying Madeleine, who must have weighed well over 2 stone. Not very gentlemanly.

A bit later, however, Madeleine perked up and said: "Mummy, this was my best day ever".

At 6.30pm Kate and David Payne claimed they had an encounter at the apartment. Their stories about what happened when he arrived at the apartment do not match in any way at all.

Of course, there are some who wave away all talk of contradictions and discrepancies and discount them altogether.

To my mind, based on the available evidence, that high tea with Madeleine on 3 May remains unproven at best.                 

You have conjoined two ideas.  First, High Tea on the 3rd.  With, second, Madeleine in attendance.

Alice P is correct.  If it can be shown that there was High Tea on 3 May AND that Madeleine attended, then Mr Hall's video dies in the first quarter.

Proving that High Tea took place on 3 May 2007, to a standard accepted by a civil or criminal court, is not hard.  That High Tea happened.  I do not need to resort to anything beyond the PJ Files.  G-Unit has assembled the cast for that High Tea, and the credits are lengthy.

The second bit is the conjoined bit.  Was Madeleine at that High Tea?  I think that bit is tougher, but I think it is worthy of a bit of unbiased clinical analysis.

[pathfinder73]

If you don't believe Madeleine was alive on 3 May (I believe she was) then the next logical step is to interrogate the last witness other than the family to have seen her. Madeleine was present at two holidays both organised by this person.

"The first time I heard of the terrible news about Madeleine's disappearance through the radio, my thoughts went immediately to.................. &%+((£

[G-Unit]

Gerry McCann forgot that his wife went for a run on the beach. After their tennis lesson finished at 16.30;

The stayed in that place, talking, until 16H45 at which time the twins went to the meal area. At 17h00, as usual, MADELEINE arrived accompanied by the teachers and the other children. After her arrival, MADELEINE ate, [the meal] having ended at 17H30.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm

In this statement is the 'awnings' comment by the way (it should be in the tea, tennis thread really);

At 17h00 the OCEAN CLUB nursery care workers conducted MADELEINE and the other children in creche on the 1st floor of the main reception to [the area] next to the TAPAS, under awnings, where they [the children] had dinner under the supervision of the employees and, at times, with their parents. The dinner ended at 17h30 the time at which the employee supervision ended and the parents took over watching the children in the play area until 18h30.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm

Of course Kate signed for all the children on 3rd and CB the nanny didn't see Gerry at all.

The receptionist didn't see Kate returning to the Tapas from her run.

Unless the cook left the restaurant area and walked towards the exit examining the children under the awnings it's unlikely she saw Madeleine either.

I don't know how the food got from the kitchen to the awning area, no-one mentions that. Was it perhaps a 'snack' as a few people have described it? More of a cold buffet than a hot meal? Fiona mentions cooking for the other children at lunchtime; 'giving them a hot meal'. Would she have done that if they had another one later?

The designated child chef didn't arrive at the resort until 5th May, if I'm reading it correctly.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P4/04_VOLUME_IVa_Page_852.jpg

The children ate under the orange awnings, although I think they were white on 3rd May;

[G-Unit]

If you don't believe Madeleine was alive on 3 May (I believe she was) then the next logical step is to interrogate the last witness other than the family to have seen her. Madeleine was present at two holidays both organised by this person.

"The first time I heard of the terrible news about Madeleine's disappearance through the radio, my thoughts went immediately to.................. &%+((£

I'm just trying to discover if she can definitely be placed at high tea.

"I read carefully the written document/questionnaire provided by David Payne."
but was not able to extricate any other information besides what is already known. He declares that he saw Madeleine, for the last time, at 17H00 on 3/5/07 in the McCann apartment. Also present there were Kate and Gerry. He did not indicate the motive for being there or what he was doing. He also cannot indicate how long he stayed.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATERINA-PAYNE-INCIDENT.htm

If what is above is true, then the McCanns and Madeleine were in G5A at 5pm. It is certainly not impossible.

[misty]

Do we have any statements from the swimming instructor or pool lifeguards who would have seen Madeleine during the week?

[pegasus]

The "not at tapas tea" theory and "not at kidsclub" theory are a huge insult to the mother who clearly describes reading bedtime stories, and to the excellent nannies who stated the child was at kidsclub including at tapas tea, and they are all telling the truth. As I've already said, initial observation about a study about dogs is reasonable, but then the film goes off on a trip in exactly the wrong time direction (and there are only two).

[ferryman]

If you don't believe Madeleine was alive on 3 May (I believe she was) then the next logical step is to interrogate the last witness other than the family to have seen her. Madeleine was present at two holidays both organised by this person.

"The first time I heard of the terrible news about Madeleine's disappearance through the radio, my thoughts went immediately to.................. &%+((£

Yet more libel.

Adroit googling laid bare the whole quote.

But at least, yes, Madeleine was alive on May 3rd.

[G-Unit]

The "not at tapas tea" theory and "not at kidsclub" theory are a huge insult to the mother who clearly describes reading bedtime stories, and to the excellent nannies who stated the child was at kidsclub including at tapas tea, and they are all telling the truth. As I've already said, initial observation about a study about dogs is reasonable, but then the film goes off on a trip in exactly the wrong time direction (and there are only two).

Unfortunately I can only find one nanny who says Madeleine was at high tea that day. Perhaps you can find more? The problem with believing everyone is that they sometimes contradict each other. Gerry said he and Kate chatted at the pool after their tennis lesson ended at 4.30pm. Kate says he played another game with another guest and she went for a run. David Payne said he was in G5A at 5pm and Fiona says she went there at 7pm with Kate. You can't believe them all pegasus.

[slartibartfast]

Yet more libel.

Adroit googling laid bare the whole quote.

But at least, yes, Madeleine was alive on May 3rd.

No, not libel.

[ShiningInLuz]

I'm just trying to discover if she can definitely be placed at high tea.

"I read carefully the written document/questionnaire provided by David Payne."
but was not able to extricate any other information besides what is already known. He declares that he saw Madeleine, for the last time, at 17H00 on 3/5/07 in the McCann apartment. Also present there were Kate and Gerry. He did not indicate the motive for being there or what he was doing. He also cannot indicate how long he stayed.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATERINA-PAYNE-INCIDENT.htm

If what is above is true, then the McCanns and Madeleine were in G5A at 5pm. It is certainly not impossible.

I think the trick with this is to determine whether the crèche records are wholly reliable or not wholly reliable, and if the latter, which entries if any can be relied on.

Mr Hall appears to claim the records are so unreliable they can be discounted entirely.  I am far from convinced of this.  In particular, if the records for 3 May are reliable, then Mr Hall's speculation bites the dust.

[G-Unit]

I think the trick with this is to determine whether the crèche records are wholly reliable or not wholly reliable, and if the latter, which entries if any can be relied on.

Mr Hall appears to claim the records are so unreliable they can be discounted entirely.  I am far from convinced of this.  In particular, if the records for 3 May are reliable, then Mr Hall's speculation bites the dust.

There are many unanswered questions about the creche. The problem is the lack of information available to answer the questions.

Why was MBM signed in late and out 15 minutes later on Monday afternoon?
Why did the creche activity sheet say the Lobsters played tennis on Monday, but the Tennis sheets said Tuesday?
Why did both the nannies working with the Minis say both groups visited the beach together on Wednesday when the activity sheet has no record of that?

[ShiningInLuz]

I'm not pitching for perfection on the crèche records.  With a manual system of the type operated I would expect to see anomalies.  I would be quite suspicious if the crèche records were 100% accurate, and tied in perfectly with every cross-reference, including the nannies, other parents, the activity records, the T9 statements, workers in the Tapas area, tennis instructors, sailing instructor and more.

Up until around 10pm on 3 May 2007, Madeleine was a person of very little consequence, at least to anyone outside the T9.

I, for one, would not expect to see anyone, bar perhaps 1 or 2 nannies, to be in a position to say definitively that Madeleine was at High Tea that day.  It was just another holiday meal with a fairly big bunch of parents, kids and nannies. The T7 could have nailed this, but of course they were at the Paraíso.

Clearly, if Madeleine was dead by High Tea time, we have a conspiracy that involves Kate McCann, Gerry McCann, David Payne, almost certainly Cat Baker (but possibly A N Other on the 'substitute girl' approach) and potentially fiddled crèche records.  Personally, even at this span, I would class this as a massive conspiracy, without going any farther back, when the conspiracy gets even bigger.

Hence, I would like to have a look about what we know about the crèche records for the afternoon of 3 May in particular, but keeping an open mind as to their accuracy at other times.

[Alice Purjorick]

I'm not pitching for perfection on the crèche records.  With a manual system of the type operated I would expect to see anomalies.  I would be quite suspicious if the crèche records were 100% accurate, and tied in perfectly with every cross-reference, including the nannies, other parents, the activity records, the T9 statements, workers in the Tapas area, tennis instructors, sailing instructor and more.

Up until around 10pm on 3 May 2007, Madeleine was a person of very little consequence, at least to anyone outside the T9.

I, for one, would not expect to see anyone, bar perhaps 1 or 2 nannies, to be in a position to say definitively that Madeleine was at High Tea that day.  It was just another holiday meal with a fairly big bunch of parents, kids and nannies. The T7 could have nailed this, but of course they were at the Paraíso.

Clearly, if Madeleine was dead by High Tea time, we have a conspiracy that involves Kate McCann, Gerry McCann, David Payne, almost certainly Cat Baker (but possibly A N Other on the 'substitute girl' approach) and potentially fiddled crèche records. Personally, even at this span, I would class this as a massive conspiracy, without going any farther back, when the conspiracy gets even bigger.

Hence, I would like to have a look about what we know about the crèche records for the afternoon of 3 May in particular, but keeping an open mind as to their accuracy at other times.

1. I would be bloody amazed if what seemingly was a bit of a slapdash manual system tied up other than on an approximate basis. Bear in mind though there were only three objectives to the "records" . Signing over the kids from the parents to the O.C /MW and the reverse; and having a record of who was responsible (with) for whom for safety reasons. As  long as a group of kids were signed over to a nanny it matters not whether they built sand castles, flew to the moon or mugged old ladies. ( I am just trying to avoid saying "played tennis")

2. True and an oft forgotten fact in the hindsight world we inhabit.

3. If it were a conspiracy I am intrigued by the mechanism by which Cat Baker would have been snared.
Those of an overly sensitive nature stop reading now!

Going up to someone you scarcely know and saying: "'ere we've just lost our kid, give us an alibi for next Friday willya cos we are going to cook up this tale that she is alive until the end of the week so just massage the records until then  eh...................."
It doesn't seem likely to me.
Anyone wanna play a shell game?

{SIL has changed one word slightly, whilst leaving the gist of the post intact.}

[G-Unit]

Is it to be expected that parents will be slapdash about their children's well-being when on holiday? Most MW guests are the type to use nurseries at home, and would be familiar with the way they're run. It would be unacceptable for a UK nursery to find a child present who hadn't been signed in, because it drives a huge hole through their insurance requirements. Likewise a parent would be challenged if a child disappeared and wasn't signed out.

Mark Warner appeared to have no systems in place to guard against the possibility of a successful insurance claim against them. Even if the parents become relaxed on holiday the MW staff are working so there's no excuse for the lack of a system showing exactly how many children are present at each session and who signed them in and out. Mark Warner are not subject to Ofsted regulation and inspection like UK nurseries.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2008/03_march/05/whistleblower.shtml

Because the Mark Warner practices were so lax I have no problem in believing that Madeleine may have left the Minis before high tea on 3rd May. I find it too much to believe that she was absent for much of the week.

[mercury]

There was a theory banded around that Madeleine met her fate due to MW neglect and they did a deal with a lot of people, all the olayers and a few bigwigs

Would explain alot of things but maybe out there a bit