Richard Hall's film 'When Madeleine Died?' uploaded to YouTube 19th Feb

[xtina]

Why would Dr Payne or Kate McCann have any reason to remember down to the last second, -  something which at the time was so insignificant and which would have been totally overshadowed anyway by what happened a few hours later?     

Dr Payne remembered stepping inside the apartment.  KM only remembers seeing him at the open door.  So what?    it's not as if one is claiming he came in and sat down and Kate is saying that he stood outside and shouted to her through the patio door.   Dr Payne thinks he was there for around 3-5 mins and Kate remembers around 30 seconds.  Again  so what?  different people have completely different perceptions of the passage of time.  Nothing at all odd in that.

IIRC Amaral stated that Kate said Dr Payne was there for 30 secs  while Gerry claimed he was in the apartment for 30 mins.    He seemed to think this was a major discrepancy.     However, IMO it's arrant nonsense as GM could not possibly know how long Dr Payne was at 5a - because he wasn't there.    Gerry was obviously referring to the time Dr Payne was gone from the tennis courts.    Again - not necessarily totally accurate but again - so what? 

None of the above was remotely important at the time it happened and so no-one felt the need to carefully commit any of it to their memories in precise detail for future reference.

It was only later that they had to try to recall it in detail.   The idea that unless everyone came up with identical times and identical descriptions of what happened during a trivial few minutes out of a whole day's activities  - then someone is being dishonest -  is preposterous IMO.


Quote from DC Ferguson (JT's rogatory statement) regarding the fallibility of memory.

4078    “You know, we can take a statement from people, if an incident happened outside and there was a group of people watching it, everybody would have a different take on what they had seen”.
Unquote.

excuses ...excuses...

no its a question for concern ......there wasn't a group of people there..

and it was't down to the last second ..was it

they managed to get the time line together...

as for remembering what happened that fateful day ...you would remember everything ...playing it in your mind like a video

why was it mentioned anyway ....to prove maddie was there?

you don't even know if she was ...

[Brietta]

excuses ...excuses...

no its a question for concern ......there wasn't a group of people there..

and it was't down to the last second ..was it

they managed to get the time line together...

as for remembering what happened that fateful day ...you would remember everything ...playing it in your mind like a video

why was it mentioned anyway ....to prove maddie was there?

you don't even know if she was ...

I would have been tremendously suspicious if a group of seven people were in perfect accord and harmony in their account of events with every nano second accounted for and each and every statement slotting seamlessly into everyone else's.

But there you are ... it takes all kinds.

Anyway ... back to the nitty gritty of Richard Hall's latest oeuvre ... is there anyone out there who has had the stamina to have been able to subject themselves to all of it?

If so would they be kind enough to say if within the content any new light was cast on what may have happened to Madeleine McCann?  if he produced any new thought that might have been helpful to the current investigation the genesis of which lies in her parents insistence?
Or do they have any suggestions or ideas as to why he might have bothered to produce it at all?

[ShiningInLuz]

I would have been tremendously suspicious if a group of seven people were in perfect accord and harmony in their account of events with every nano second accounted for and each and every statement slotting seamlessly into everyone else's.

But there you are ... it takes all kinds.

Anyway ... back to the nitty gritty of Richard Hall's latest oeuvre ... is there anyone out there who has had the stamina to have been able to subject themselves to all of it?

If so would they be kind enough to say if within the content any new light was cast on what may have happened to Madeleine McCann?  if he produced any new thought that might have been helpful to the current investigation the genesis of which lies in her parents insistence?
Or do they have any suggestions or ideas as to why he might have bothered to produce it at all?

I'm 2.5 hours in and grinding slowly through.  I should be able to provide a fair outline by the time I make it to the end, but that will be a fair while off, as my progress is slow.

Any new light?  Perhaps, perhaps not.

There is one subset of conspiracy theorists who claim The Last Photo must have been made on a trip by the McCanns to the Ocean Club in 2006.  I doubt you gave this much credence.  But my trip yesterday to the Ocean Club undermined the 'evidence' behind this assertion.

Just to be clear, Mr Hall does not appear to be of the opinion that there was a 2006 trip.  I simply got into the 2006 idea trying to find something else.

I was not aware of the details of the controversy over The Last Photo.  Mr Hall is asking questions about which date it was produced, and the rather strange way it seems to have emerged into the public domain.

On my travels, again for something else, I got into the debate about the date and time of The Last Photo.  I may be able to add something about the date in future.  I believe I can nail the time of day, but I need to double check before sticking this idea on my blog.

These are hardly major breakthroughs.  The most puzzling thing I have got out of this so far is how The Last Photo emerged.  I haven't had the time thus far to subject this to some sanity testing, so that is for the future.

[Carana]

All this is made plain on his website, and also on the McCann-doubter forums.

People buy his videos to have, to watch again, to share with friends etc. etc. - and many comments add as a further reason for buying the Madeleine films: "So we still have copies in circulation in case the McCanns try to ban them".

Also @ ShiningInLuz    Hall publishes responses to his films and offers to correct any proven inaccuracies. He has a contact address on his website. Why not ask him your question about the weather charts direct? - he will probably answer you after his current tour ends. I have looked at available weather reports that week on the Algarve myself - and without question they all show that Saturday and Sunday (28th, 29th April 2007) were very sunny and warm, followed during Monday by a cold front which brought cooler, cloudier, windier weather - and some rain - for the rest of the week   

Hmmm. From having watched the first episode, it would take an enormous amount of time to point out everything that he got either wrong or didn't appear to understand.

Life's too short.

Do you know if he intends to tour the UK giving paying talks about this?

[blonk]

Why would Dr Payne or Kate McCann have any reason to remember down to the last second, -  something which at the time was so insignificant and which would have been totally overshadowed anyway by what happened a few hours later?     

Dr Payne remembered stepping inside the apartment.  KM only remembers seeing him at the open door.  So what?

I know we have to be very polite to each other on this forum, but at the risk of being reported (again) to the Forum Moderator or Admin, I hope I am allowed to suggest that this response is disingenuous, at the very best.

Dr Payne says he came in through the open patio door, sat down, saw the children all dressed in angelic white, stayed for several minutes, and admired what a wonderful mother was Kate.

Kate's story couldn't be more different. Payne knocked at the front door. I was in the shower. I stepped out in my towel. I didn't let him in. He went away within 30 seconds or so.

'xtina' has already given a very good answer to your point: you would inevitably remember very vividly and accurately the events of a day which led to the seismic event of the abduction of one of the children in your party.     

I can't be impressed with a poster who off-handedly dismisses serious contradictions so lightly. It is evading a difficulty and deliberately avoiding examining the possibility that this alleged meeting at around 6.30pm on Thursday 3 May 2007 never actually happened at all.     

[Alfred R Jones]

I know we have to be very polite to each other on this forum, but at the risk of being reported (again) to the Forum Moderator or Admin, I hope I am allowed to suggest that this response is disingenuous, at the very best.

Dr Payne says he came in through the open patio door, sat down, saw the children all dressed in angelic white, stayed for several minutes, and admired what a wonderful mother was Kate.

Kate's story couldn't be more different. Payne knocked at the front door. I was in the shower. I stepped out in my towel. I didn't let him in. He went away within 30 seconds or so.

'xtina' has already given a very good answer to your point: you would inevitably remember very vividly and accurately the events of a day which led to the seismic event of the abduction of one of the children in your party.     

I can't be impressed with a poster who off-handedly dismisses serious contradictions so lightly. It is evading a difficulty and deliberately avoiding examining the possibility that this alleged meeting at around 6.30pm on Thursday 3 May 2007 never actually happened at all.     

Bang goes Pathfinder's theory (which involves an invitation from Person X to Person Y to come and molest the children resulting in a death).

[Lace]

I know we have to be very polite to each other on this forum, but at the risk of being reported (again) to the Forum Moderator or Admin, I hope I am allowed to suggest that this response is disingenuous, at the very best.

Dr Payne says he came in through the open patio door, sat down, saw the children all dressed in angelic white, stayed for several minutes, and admired what a wonderful mother was Kate.

Kate's story couldn't be more different. Payne knocked at the front door. I was in the shower. I stepped out in my towel. I didn't let him in. He went away within 30 seconds or so.

'xtina' has already given a very good answer to your point: you would inevitably remember very vividly and accurately the events of a day which led to the seismic event of the abduction of one of the children in your party.     

I can't be impressed with a poster who off-handedly dismisses serious contradictions so lightly. It is evading a difficulty and deliberately avoiding examining the possibility that this alleged meeting at around 6.30pm on Thursday 3 May 2007 never actually happened at all.     

I don't remember David Payne saying he 'sat down' in his statement.

Anyway the fact that Kate says 30 seconds and David Payne says minutes means nothing at all, everyone expresses time differently,  sometimes five minutes can seem like ten or fifteen.   

Why would David Payne lie about calling in to see Kate?

[pathfinder73]

This looks very much like an extraordinarily flippant response to a very serious set of clear contradictions.

Read their statements to know what normally happens at that time.

[Alice Purjorick]

I'm 2.5 hours in and grinding slowly through.  I should be able to provide a fair outline by the time I make it to the end, but that will be a fair while off, as my progress is slow.

Any new light?  Perhaps, perhaps not.

There is one subset of conspiracy theorists who claim The Last Photo must have been made on a trip by the McCanns to the Ocean Club in 2006.  I doubt you gave this much credence.  But my trip yesterday to the Ocean Club undermined the 'evidence' behind this assertion.

Just to be clear, Mr Hall does not appear to be of the opinion that there was a 2006 trip.  I simply got into the 2006 idea trying to find something else.

I was not aware of the details of the controversy over The Last Photo.  Mr Hall is asking questions about which date it was produced, and the rather strange way it seems to have emerged into the public domain.

On my travels, again for something else, I got into the debate about the date and time of The Last Photo.  I may be able to add something about the date in future.  I believe I can nail the time of day, but I need to double check before sticking this idea on my blog.

These are hardly major breakthroughs.  The most puzzling thing I have got out of this so far is how The Last Photo emerged.  I haven't had the time thus far to subject this to some sanity testing, so that is for the future.

Recognising I probably lack the self discipline to sit through four hours of it I took the random route and looked at "reel 2".
Old Mother Shipton, she of the cave near Knaresbrough, once said allegedly:
"Around the world men's thoughts will fly, quick as the twinkling of an eye".
Someone, possibly Mr Hall,  once postulated this was OMS predicting email.
I think I will now go "no bid" on the remaining three "reels".

[Eleanor]

I watched the last one from cover to cover, but after 35 minutes of this one, I ain't doing that again.
There is a limit to what I will do for this Forum.

[Benice]

I know we have to be very polite to each other on this forum, but at the risk of being reported (again) to the Forum Moderator or Admin, I hope I am allowed to suggest that this response is disingenuous, at the very best.

Dr Payne says he came in through the open patio door, sat down, saw the children all dressed in angelic white, stayed for several minutes, and admired what a wonderful mother was Kate.

Kate's story couldn't be more different. Payne knocked at the front door. I was in the shower. I stepped out in my towel. I didn't let him in. He went away within 30 seconds or so.

'xtina' has already given a very good answer to your point: you would inevitably remember very vividly and accurately the events of a day which led to the seismic event of the abduction of one of the children in your party.     

I can't be impressed with a poster who off-handedly dismisses serious contradictions so lightly. It is evading a difficulty and deliberately avoiding examining the possibility that this alleged meeting at around 6.30pm on Thursday 3 May 2007 never actually happened at all.     

Please provide a cite for your claim that Dr Payne went in and  'sat down' in the apartment as IMO that would put a completely different complexion on things.

IMO there is no reason at all to particularly remember trivial events which happened hours BEFORE a major catastrophe.    There would be no reason to make a point of remembering them in any detail at the time they occurred  -  because obviously  - they couldn't see into the future and so would have no idea they could be important at a later time.          Afterwards they would do their best to try to recall those events - but they would not be any more vivid then - than when they actually happened and so they would still probably struggle to precisely remember them in any detail.

I'm not impressed by posters who appear to completely dismiss or deny the proven fallibility of memory - which is responsible for so many discrepancies when it comes to different witnesses recalling the same events.

I see you ignored the reassurance from DC Ferguson (JT's rogatory statement) when it came to memory recall. i.e.

QUOTE

4078    “You know, we can take a statement from people, if an incident happened outside and there was a group of people watching it, everybody would have a different take on what they had seen”.
Unquote.
 
Maybe you think that Steve Retford a Specialist Interviewing Adviser with the force was being disingenuous when he said the following: 

Quote

In a crime situation memory is influenced by many factors such as stress, the presence of a weapon and even just the desire to help police solve the crime.

"Police know how fallible the memory can be," says Steve Retford, a former head of the investigative skills unit at GMP and now specialist interviewing adviser with the force.

"They also know this is usually not through mischievousness on the part of the witnesses, but through stress and shock."

Take the case of Jean Charles de Menezes, shot at Stockwell Tube station in 2005 by police who mistook him for a suicide bomber.

Eyewitnesses said he had vaulted a ticket barrier when running away from the police. In fact it was later shown by CCTV that Mr Menezes had walked through the barriers, having picked up a free newspaper, and only ran when he saw his train arriving.
End quote

Some sceptics will of course continue to delude themselves that discrepancies must mean that lies are being told because that is what they want to believe   - but fortunately professional policemen know that is definitely not the case.   In fact they would be more likely to be suspicious if there were NO discrepancies as that would suggest collusion. 

IMO

[Brietta]

I'm 2.5 hours in and grinding slowly through.  I should be able to provide a fair outline by the time I make it to the end, but that will be a fair while off, as my progress is slow.

Any new light?  Perhaps, perhaps not.

There is one subset of conspiracy theorists who claim The Last Photo must have been made on a trip by the McCanns to the Ocean Club in 2006.  I doubt you gave this much credence.  But my trip yesterday to the Ocean Club undermined the 'evidence' behind this assertion.

Just to be clear, Mr Hall does not appear to be of the opinion that there was a 2006 trip.  I simply got into the 2006 idea trying to find something else.

I was not aware of the details of the controversy over The Last Photo.  Mr Hall is asking questions about which date it was produced, and the rather strange way it seems to have emerged into the public domain.

On my travels, again for something else, I got into the debate about the date and time of The Last Photo.  I may be able to add something about the date in future.  I believe I can nail the time of day, but I need to double check before sticking this idea on my blog.

These are hardly major breakthroughs.  The most puzzling thing I have got out of this so far is how The Last Photo emerged.  I haven't had the time thus far to subject this to some sanity testing, so that is for the future.

Hat off to you for making the attempt ... I did try ... but within three or four minutes I was in a sound sleep.  Good luck with it.

Words fail me when it comes to the 'last photo' and the other conspiracy theories ... unwieldy and clumsy in the main and in my opinion all requiring the suspension of belief or common sense and even at that are unworkable.

There is so much effort put into demonstrating the culpability of Madeleine's parents ... as I presume this oeuvre is just another example ... that one wonders what exactly is behind it all.

Scientists at Aberdeen Uni have produced a mathematical model looking at comparisons between the transmission of social phenomena and infectious diseases.

I've not read any abstract yet but I think it might prove an interesting summation of the way in which oddities as belief in notions such as the 'last photo conspiracy theory' generate and spread.
https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/lifestyle/technology/846369/aberdeen-scientists-work-exactly-things-go-viral-online/

[Alice Purjorick]

Hat off to you for making the attempt ... I did try ... but within three or four minutes I was in a sound sleep.  Good luck with it.

Words fail me when it comes to the 'last photo' and the other conspiracy theories ... unwieldy and clumsy in the main and in my opinion all requiring the suspension of belief or common sense and even at that are unworkable.

There is so much effort put into demonstrating the culpability of Madeleine's parents ... as I presume this oeuvre is just another example ... that one wonders what exactly is behind it all.

Scientists at Aberdeen Uni have produced a mathematical model looking at comparisons between the transmission of social phenomena and infectious diseases.

I've not read any abstract yet but I think it might prove an interesting summation of the way in which oddities as belief in notions such as the 'last photo conspiracy theory' generate and spread.
https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/lifestyle/technology/846369/aberdeen-scientists-work-exactly-things-go-viral-online/

From your link:
He said: “We often witness social phenomena that become accepted by many people overnight, especially now in the age of social media.

“This is especially relevant to social contexts in which individuals initially hesitate to join a collective movement, for example a strike, because they fear becoming part of a minority that could be punished. But it also applies to new ideas or products.

“Mathematical models proposed in the past typically neglected the synergistic effects of acquaintances and were unable to explain explosive contagion, but we show that these effects are ultimately responsible for whether something catches on quickly.

“In very basic terms, our model shows that people’s opposition to accept a new idea acts as a barrier to large contagion, until the transmission of the phenomenon becomes strong enough to overcome that reluctance – at this point, explosive contagion happens.”

I prefer this explanation which is not a lot different:

..there is a raven in the eastern sea which is called Yitai ("dull-head"). This dull-head cannot fly very high and seems very stupid. It hops only a short distance and nestles close with others of its kind. In going forward, it dare not lead in going backward it dare not lag behind. At the time of feeding, it takes what is left over by the other birds. Therefore, the ranks of this bird are never depleted and nobody can do them any harm. A tree with a straight trunk is the first to be chopped down. A well with sweet water is the first to be drawn dry."

- TAIKUNG JEN, in a conversation with Confucius

[blonk]

I think I will now go "no bid" on the remaining three "reels".

For the sake of our friends in the U.S., I will raise to '1 NO TRUMP'

[Eleanor]

One might wonder why RDH felt the need to add the question mark.