Crispy and Sheila's affinity with pets

[Myster]

But the BT tel op heard him yapping at 4.30am.  I doubt she would hear him through the handset unless he was in the vicinity of the phone?

27. At 3.35 a.m., Mr Bonnet arranged for a police car to go to White House Farm. A check made by a British Telecom operator of the telephone line to the farm was made at 4.30 a.m. The receiver was off the hook and all the operator could hear was the sound of a dog barking.

Crispy slept downstairs in a basket near the Aga or on the kitchen chair.

Why not?... distance from the landing to the kitchen isn't that great, and loud noises from a yapping dog upstairs would readily travel through the stairwell to phone receiver. The operator could have increased the standard volume she was hearing too. Crispy might have slept upstairs while Sheila and the twins were staying there... I pointed out what looks like a wood-framed dog bed and red woolen blanket with hairs on it in Sheila's room.

[Holly Goodhead]

Why not?... distance from the landing to the kitchen isn't that great, and loud noises from a yapping dog upstairs would readily travel through the stairwell to phone receiver. The operator could have increased the standard volume she was hearing too. Crispy might have slept upstairs while Sheila and the twins were staying there... I pointed out what looks like a wood-framed dog bed and red woolen blanket with hairs on it in Sheila's room.

I'll  phone the landline with my mobile and carry out a sound test.  The mouthpiece is designed to be held at the mouth so I would be surprised to learn it is able to pick up the sound of a dog barking beyond the kitchen.

Yes Crispy may have slept in SC's room.  And NB may have slept in SC's room.  And SC may have slept with June. 

[puglove]

I'm not sure what you're looking for from this thread, Holl. Crispy was only a little dog, so any pawmarks might not have been very obvious. Or important. IMO most dogs, even if running about in a mad panic, would try to avoid treading in wet blood or broken glass. I haven't read (in 5 years) that Crispy's paws were inspected (they would have to part the pads to look for sugar).

I find it very sad that no one wanted to take Crispy on afterwards, but not everyone is as soft as me. If you already have dogs, as other members of the family probably did, it might be difficult to introduce another dog who is a bit spoilt, yappy, attached to one person and set in it's ways into the mix, and not worth the hassle. I seriously doubt that Crispy had a tale (tail) to tell.

[Holly Goodhead]

I'll  phone the landline with my mobile and carry out a sound test.  The mouthpiece is designed to be held at the mouth so I would be surprised to learn it is able to pick up the sound of a dog barking beyond the kitchen.

Yes Crispy may have slept in SC's room.  And NB may have slept in SC's room.  And SC may have slept with June.

CAL P165 (Source Jean Rowe BT Phone Operator WS 8th Aug 1985)

"BT switchboard worker Jean Rowe checked the line at 3.42am and found the telephone was off the hook.  She checked it again at 3.56am and listened to an open line: 'There wasn't any speech but I could hear a dog barking, the noise was loud so it appeared that the dog was near to the receiver'."

[Holly Goodhead]

Dogs cutting paws on glass:

http://www.pedigree.com/all-things-dog/article-library/treating-paw-pad-injuries.aspx

http://www.the-happy-dog-spot.com/dog-paw-injuries.html

http://www.dogster.com/doggie-style/at-home-first-aid-for-a-dog-paw-injury

I find it difficult to understand how the prosecution were able to argue had SC been the perp she would have tell tale signs of blood and/or debris on her feet when surely the same could be said of Crispy?  As far as I am aware his paws were not checked which might have concealed any debris but what about paw prints in blood? 

[scipio_usmc]

CAL P165 (Source Jean Rowe BT Phone Operator WS 8th Aug 1985)

"BT switchboard worker Jean Rowe checked the line at 3.42am and found the telephone was off the hook.  She checked it again at 3.56am and listened to an open line: 'There wasn't any speech but I could hear a dog barking, the noise was loud so it appeared that the dog was near to the receiver'."

My mom's Shih Tzu "Bandit" used to look out the living room window on the couch and bark.  The living room was in the front of the house and kitchen in the back.  A hall and several rooms separated them.  If he barked people I was speaking with could hear him and thought he was nearby. That was even despite our talking.  He may have been  in a room near the kitchen not in it we have no way to know.  If you hear total silence and just a dog barking you might incorrectly assume it is very close to the receiver when it is a room away. 

Dogs bark when they are scared/something is wrong.  When some dog are alone they are scared and will bark nonstop.  A dog detecting everyone as dead after the trauma of hearing the gunshots can certainly be that way. if wet blood is everywhere then dogs can't avoid stepping in it but if there are not pools of wet blood that they can't avoid they often do avoid such.

People not just animals have been known to eat people when left for many days with nothing to eat.  That really has little bearing on the issue at hand of Crispy stuck there alone for 5 hours. Animals understand death and other things more than we often give them credit for.  They somehow know when it will snow before it does without the benefit of meteorologists who are always wrong (this weekend we got 33 inches though they predicted 6-8 the night before) and they are tuned into other things in ways we can't appreciate at all.

When I was a child my mom's poodle died and our German Shepard who loved her (she hated him except when she was in heat) would not go anywhere near her body.  When he died I tried to show his body to our other dog so she could see he was gone but she fought to get out of my arms and stayed as far away as possible.  They can sense and appreciate death from a distance. 

[scipio_usmc]

Dogs cutting paws on glass:

http://www.pedigree.com/all-things-dog/article-library/treating-paw-pad-injuries.aspx

http://www.the-happy-dog-spot.com/dog-paw-injuries.html

http://www.dogster.com/doggie-style/at-home-first-aid-for-a-dog-paw-injury

I find it difficult to understand how the prosecution were able to argue had SC been the perp she would have tell tale signs of blood and/or debris on her feet when surely the same could be said of Crispy?  As far as I am aware his paws were not checked which might have concealed any debris but what about paw prints in blood?

The killer had to pass through the glass while the dog could have entirely avoided that area.  The killer was in that area beating and shooting Nevill and had to walk through it to get out of the kitchen. The dog could have gone no where near Nevill's body. If Nevill had bite marks on him you would have a better argument...

[Holly Goodhead]

My mom's Shih Tzu "Bandit" used to look out the living room window on the couch and bark.  The living room was in the front of the house and kitchen in the back.  A hall and several rooms separated them.  If he barked people I was speaking with could hear him and thought he was nearby. That was even despite our talking.  He may have been  in a room near the kitchen not in it we have no way to know.  If you hear total silence and just a dog barking you might incorrectly assume it is very close to the receiver when it is a room away. 

Dogs bark when they are scared/something is wrong.  When some dog are alone they are scared and will bark nonstop.  A dog detecting everyone as dead after the trauma of hearing the gunshots can certainly be that way. if wet blood is everywhere then dogs can't avoid stepping in it but if there are not pools of wet blood that they can't avoid they often do avoid such.

People not just animals have been known to eat people when left for many days with nothing to eat.  That really has little bearing on the issue at hand of Crispy stuck there alone for 5 hours. Animals understand death and other things more than we often give them credit for.  They somehow know when it will snow before it does without the benefit of meteorologists who are always wrong (this weekend we got 33 inches though they predicted 6-8 the night before) and they are tuned into other things in ways we can't appreciate at all.

When I was a child my mom's poodle died and our German Shepard who loved her (she hated him except when she was in heat) would not go anywhere near her body.  When he died I tried to show his body to our other dog so she could see he was gone but she fought to get out of my arms and stayed as far away as possible.  They can sense and appreciate death from a distance.

I've just carried out a little test!

Laptop situated on kitchen top playing barking Shih Tzu.  Phoned landline with mobile.  Landline on floor below laptop. Went into garden so unable to hear laptop.  Could hear dog barking loud and clear obvious it was very near.  Moved landline about 10 feet away to another part of kitchen still clear.  Moved landline to utility room about 20 feet away but with door open and the sound was noticeably different could still hear barking but sounded distant.

[Myster]

Is that a typo and you mean snarky or is sarky a real word over there?  Some of your words that I thought were fake are real so I never know...

Holly was being sarcastic (sarky) in reply to me... about Nevill sleeping in Sheila's room and Sheila sleeping with her mother, when she doesn't actually believe either happened.

[Myster]

A Crispy stand-in, barking at the phone in a mock WHF kitchen. Not as loud as I thought...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7suFAX3RRM

[Holly Goodhead]

I posted this clip in post #1:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6991.msg303154#msg303154

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bbYtb2ItMg

She's quite loud!  I used her in my test. 

[Myster]

I posted this clip in post #1:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6991.msg303154#msg303154

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bbYtb2ItMg

She's quite loud!  I used her in my test.

Must have missed that video. Cute dogs, aren't they?... much prettier than pugs ; - )  I can understand why women have them as substitute children when real ones have flown the nest.

As scipio said, if Crispy was in the kitchen, he/she could have avoided the blood pool by the scuttle, and there didn't appear to be very much elsewhere on the floor to get on his/her pads. Similarly he/she probably avoided stepping on any glass shards, or was lucky not to.

[Holly Goodhead]

Must have missed that video. Cute dogs, aren't they?... much prettier than pugs ; - )  I can understand why women have them as substitute children when real ones have flown the nest.

As scipio said, if Crispy was in the kitchen, he/she could have avoided the blood pool by the scuttle, and there didn't appear to be very much elsewhere on the floor to get on his/her pads. Similarly he/she probably avoided stepping on any glass shards, or was lucky not to.

Yes it looks adorable.

Yes I agree but surely the same could be said for SC?  Those that believe SC guilty, including the prosecution at trial, emphasise the fact SC's feet were clean.   Four small paws v two adult feet but surely it's all relative as Crispy would take more steps than SC?

d) Her hands and feet were clean. They were not blood stained and neither was there any sugar upon them;

Obviously we will never know Crispy's movements and location during the tragedy.  It seems likely he was in the kitchen as heard by the tel op but he was found in the main bedroom and there's no evidence of paw prints from June's blood either.  Again same applies to SC.   

[Holly Goodhead]

I'm not sure what you're looking for from this thread, Holl. Crispy was only a little dog, so any pawmarks might not have been very obvious. Or important. IMO most dogs, even if running about in a mad panic, would try to avoid treading in wet blood or broken glass. I haven't read (in 5 years) that Crispy's paws were inspected (they would have to part the pads to look for sugar).

I find it very sad that no one wanted to take Crispy on afterwards, but not everyone is as soft as me. If you already have dogs, as other members of the family probably did, it might be difficult to introduce another dog who is a bit spoilt, yappy, attached to one person and set in it's ways into the mix, and not worth the hassle. I seriously doubt that Crispy had a tale (tail) to tell.

As you know I have no personal experience of dogs, although I could do after watching that cute Shih Tzu in the bath tub, so can only go on my observations of pet dogs belonging to friends and family.  I appreciate Crispy's four paws are a smaller surface area than adult feet but even so the prosecution claim had SC carried out the murders and taken her own life blood would have been visible on her feet and yet if this was true surely there would be some trace of a paw print if Crispy was roaming around unfettered within the SoC?  Personally I think the only area of substantial blood was by NB.  The debris by way of sugar and glass may well have been restricted to a small area of the kitchen so that Crispy and the perp may have easily avoided.  Blood on the kitchen floor, other than that by NB, was described as a "light distribution".  AE claims EP apologised for not removing blood from the stairs but she says she was unable to identify any.  Blood on the landing was restricted to two small spots.  And blood on the main bedroom carpet although numerous spots may well have been absorbed and dried quickly as suggested by Dr Vanezis.  In any event whether SC was perp or victim she ended up in close proximity to the blood spots in the main bedroom.  Pause for thought  &%+((£