Author Topic: "they didn't check on them like they afterwards declared they did" claim.  (Read 38780 times)

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Offline Angelo222

Re: "they didn't check on them like they afterwards declared they did" claim.
« Reply #120 on: February 02, 2016, 12:35:12 PM »
What newspaper account did I post on this? I quoted the archival ruling.

That is not immediately obvious.  However to requote an extract from the piece you selected from the Final Police Report.

"This witness places in cause [doubt] the allegation (by the parents) of the daily routine of visits every 30 minutes to check the children who had been left on their own.

In plain English this means the witness places in doubt the parents version of events.

[ ] added
« Last Edit: February 03, 2016, 12:45:25 AM by Admin »
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Offline Angelo222

Re: "they didn't check on them like they afterwards declared they did" claim.
« Reply #121 on: February 02, 2016, 12:40:52 PM »
Mrs Fenn never said that it was Madeleine. She was asked if, in her view, the crying came from a child two years or younger (at least that is how it was written down in the statement). What was she actually asked? Was it phrased like that when she was asked? Or was she asked if it could have been an infant / baby or whatever other term to distinguish very young children?

There are also numerous questions as to why there is no mention of the two gates, whether she wore a hearing aid (as elderly people often do), etc.

I find it totally plausible that she'd got a bit confused and heard one or more young children crying at some point from any apartment, heard a patio door sliding at some point, but heard whichever twin had woken up later than her recollection and possibly Madeleine calling out as she toddled over to sleep with her parents that night.

Wihout further corroboration it's impossible to know whether her account is accurate or not (particularly 3 months later and noted in reported speech).

This is merely your opinion based on very little substance.  Do you really think the police wouldn't have called with her on numerous occasions as well as check out her experience with the friend she called in distress?  I give up!
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Offline Carana

Re: "they didn't check on them like they afterwards declared they did" claim.
« Reply #122 on: February 02, 2016, 12:44:04 PM »
"que pela sonoridade the parecia de uma crianca jovem e nao de um bebe de dois anos ou menos."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAMELA_FENN.htm

I know... it says "a young child and not a baby of two years old or younger".

But that is how the officer wrote it down. Is that literally the question asked via the interpreter?

It's entirely feasible that she heard some young kid crying at some point, then whichever twin and Madeleine calling out "daddy" (who would have had a slighter old voice) and that would have tallied with what the parents had stated.

My issue is that Mrs Fenn's account isn't "proven". If there had been CCTV showing the parents walking up the steps at the time; if her phone call to Mrs Glynn had been checked; if an acoustic reconstruction had been done to verify her account; if there had been a video of this interview... and it all tallied, then I wouldn't be questioning it.


Offline Carana

Re: "they didn't check on them like they afterwards declared they did" claim.
« Reply #123 on: February 02, 2016, 12:46:23 PM »
This is merely your opinion based on very little substance.  Do you really think the police wouldn't have called with her on numerous occasions as well as check out her experience with the friend she called in distress?  I give up!

I'm not quite sure I understand your post.

When was her statement taken?

Where is Mrs Glynn's statement (I can't even find one to suggest that one is in the missing folder).

ETA: Have you?

« Last Edit: February 02, 2016, 12:50:59 PM by Carana »

Offline Angelo222

Re: "they didn't check on them like they afterwards declared they did" claim.
« Reply #124 on: February 02, 2016, 12:52:13 PM »
I'm not quite sure I understand your post.

When was her statement taken?

Where is Mrs Glynn's statement (I can't even find one to suggest that one is in the missing folder).

OMFG  do you think the cops publish every single thing they speak to witnesses about?   They were looking for a missing kid, not looking for liars.
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Offline carlymichelle

Re: "they didn't check on them like they afterwards declared they did" claim.
« Reply #125 on: February 02, 2016, 12:55:21 PM »
OMFG  do you think the cops publish every single thing they speak to witnesses about?   They were looking for a missing kid, not looking for liars.

honestly sometimes reading stuff  on here makes me want to hit my  head on a  brick wall   mcann supporters  deny  everything they  will never  understand what the mcanns  caused    by   leaving their kids or whatever did happen
« Last Edit: February 02, 2016, 12:57:51 PM by carlymichelle »

Offline Carana

Re: "they didn't check on them like they afterwards declared they did" claim.
« Reply #126 on: February 02, 2016, 12:57:14 PM »
OMFG  do you think the cops publish every single thing they speak to witnesses about?   They were looking for a missing kid, not looking for liars.

They were indeed, in the beginning. Yet, despite the fact that she lived just above, there is nothing in the files (that I can find) to suggest that she'd been interviewed before mid-August or whenever it was.

And you haven't answered my question.

Offline pathfinder73

Re: "they didn't check on them like they afterwards declared they did" claim.
« Reply #127 on: February 02, 2016, 12:59:35 PM »
I know... it says "a young child and not a baby of two years old or younger".

But that is how the officer wrote it down. Is that literally the question asked via the interpreter?

It's entirely feasible that she heard some young kid crying at some point, then whichever twin and Madeleine calling out "daddy" (who would have had a slighter old voice) and that would have tallied with what the parents had stated.

My issue is that Mrs Fenn's account isn't "proven". If there had been CCTV showing the parents walking up the steps at the time; if her phone call to Mrs Glynn had been checked; if an acoustic reconstruction had been done to verify her account; if there had been a video of this interview... and it all tallied, then I wouldn't be questioning it.

"She also said that she never told the McCann's that she had heard their daughter crying previously on Tuesday (1st May) because she thought it would just increase their suffering." PF

She didn't tell them their missing daughter was crying on TUE to not increase their suffering.
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Carana

Re: "they didn't check on them like they afterwards declared they did" claim.
« Reply #128 on: February 02, 2016, 01:01:41 PM »
"She also said that she never told the McCann's that she had heard their daughter crying previously on Tuesday (1st May) because she thought it would just increase their suffering." PF

She didn't tell them their missing daughter was crying on TUE to not increase their suffering.

And?

Offline pathfinder73

Re: "they didn't check on them like they afterwards declared they did" claim.
« Reply #129 on: February 02, 2016, 01:03:21 PM »
And?

It is obvious who Mrs Fenn said was crying and it was their missing daughter.
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: "they didn't check on them like they afterwards declared they did" claim.
« Reply #130 on: February 02, 2016, 01:07:29 PM »
Errr no.
A proven fact is only a proven fact when it has proven a fact which factually fits in with the version of the facts you are promoting.

If a proven fact does not prove a fact which is necessary to factually fit in with the version of the facts you are promoting then it is not a proven fact and is only an opinion.
Simples.

 *&*%£


Sounds like a good idea for a book on this case.

Mind you, that could consist  of a front and back cover with space in between.

Offline Carana

Re: "they didn't check on them like they afterwards declared they did" claim.
« Reply #131 on: February 02, 2016, 01:13:12 PM »
It is obvious who Mrs Fenn said was crying and it was their missing daughter.

I already said that if there had been corroborating evidence then I wouldn't be questioning this issue. As far as I can find, there is none.

Offline Carana

Re: "they didn't check on them like they afterwards declared they did" claim.
« Reply #132 on: February 02, 2016, 01:20:54 PM »
Errr no.
A proven fact is only a proven fact when it has proven a fact which factually fits in with the version of the facts you are promoting.

If a proven fact does not prove a fact which is necessary to factually fit in with the version of the facts you are promoting then it is not a proven fact and is only an opinion.
Simples.

Seeing as some people appear keen to promote the damage/defamation judge as having somehow proven that what she quoted from the files has somehow been proven, I'll repost this here:


Proven Facts in the Civil Trial: English Translation, 21 January 2015

Articles 27 and 28 – The answer to the question faces, firstly, the problem of dichotomy between "facts that have been ascertained in the inquiry" and "facts that are equally part of the inquiry". If one understood as facts that have been ascertained in the investigation those that, with rigour and according to procedural-penal dogmatism, resulted from the investigation, it is believed that only one would deserve that qualification – the disappearance of Madeleine MacCann. Everything that is part of the investigation, apart from that fact, is indicia, means of evidence, means of obtaining evidence and theses or hypotheses of fact, which is normal for an inquiry that has been archived due to a lack of evidence. Thus it is understood that, when one places side by side "facts that have been ascertained in the inquiry" and those that "are part of the inquiry" one is referring to the means of obtaining evidence, the means of evidence and indicia that make up the investigation itself and that are documented in the inquiry. Thus, from the reading of the book and the viewing of the documentary it is concluded that defendant Gonçalo Amaral uses, in his affirmations, mostly facts that did indeed take place and are documented in the inquiry (in the version that is available in this process). Some of the facts that were used are not complete (for example, from the report about Martin Smith's deposition – in the inquiry, page 1606 of Volume 6) – the part where the witness states that the person that he saw carrying a child in his arms did not do it "in a comfortable manner, showing a lack of habitude") and others that are contained in the book and in the documentary have not been included in the inquiry (v.g. the instructions that he gave to the picket when he heard about the disappearance – page 37 of the book; the statement attributed to the parents that the apartment showed break-in signs – page 44 of the book; Kate MacCann's discomfort over the speed of the car – page 55 of the book; the hypothesis of a reconstruction of events discussed in mid-May – page 94 of the book; the "informal" identification of Robert Murat by Jane Tanner – page 108).
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id505.html

(I'm not sure that these were actually the final proven facts or whether they were her assessment as at January.)

Offline Angelo222

Re: "they didn't check on them like they afterwards declared they did" claim.
« Reply #133 on: February 02, 2016, 01:31:31 PM »
Seeing as some people appear keen to promote the damage/defamation judge as having somehow proven that what she quoted from the files has somehow been proven, I'll repost this here:


Proven Facts in the Civil Trial: English Translation, 21 January 2015

Articles 27 and 28 – The answer to the question faces, firstly, the problem of dichotomy between "facts that have been ascertained in the inquiry" and "facts that are equally part of the inquiry". If one understood as facts that have been ascertained in the investigation those that, with rigour and according to procedural-penal dogmatism, resulted from the investigation, it is believed that only one would deserve that qualification – the disappearance of Madeleine MacCann. Everything that is part of the investigation, apart from that fact, is indicia, means of evidence, means of obtaining evidence and theses or hypotheses of fact, which is normal for an inquiry that has been archived due to a lack of evidence. Thus it is understood that, when one places side by side "facts that have been ascertained in the inquiry" and those that "are part of the inquiry" one is referring to the means of obtaining evidence, the means of evidence and indicia that make up the investigation itself and that are documented in the inquiry. Thus, from the reading of the book and the viewing of the documentary it is concluded that defendant Gonçalo Amaral uses, in his affirmations, mostly facts that did indeed take place and are documented in the inquiry (in the version that is available in this process). Some of the facts that were used are not complete (for example, from the report about Martin Smith's deposition – in the inquiry, page 1606 of Volume 6) – the part where the witness states that the person that he saw carrying a child in his arms did not do it "in a comfortable manner, showing a lack of habitude") and others that are contained in the book and in the documentary have not been included in the inquiry (v.g. the instructions that he gave to the picket when he heard about the disappearance – page 37 of the book; the statement attributed to the parents that the apartment showed break-in signs – page 44 of the book; Kate MacCann's discomfort over the speed of the car – page 55 of the book; the hypothesis of a reconstruction of events discussed in mid-May – page 94 of the book; the "informal" identification of Robert Murat by Jane Tanner – page 108).
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id505.html

(I'm not sure that these were actually the final proven facts or whether they were her assessment as at January.)

I have never seen a judge yet or a court which includes known falsehoods within any judgement.

Proven Facts means exactly that, proven facts!
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Offline Mr Gray

Re: "they didn't check on them like they afterwards declared they did" claim.
« Reply #134 on: February 02, 2016, 01:32:31 PM »
Errr no.
A proven fact is only a proven fact when it has proven a fact which factually fits in with the version of the facts you are promoting.

If a proven fact does not prove a fact which is necessary to factually fit in with the version of the facts you are promoting then it is not a proven fact and is only an opinion.
Simples.

we would need a definition of what is meant by a proven fact according to the court judgement as several as what are recorded as proven 100% are not.......