"they didn't check on them like they afterwards declared they did" claim.

[Carana]

I have never seen a judge yet or a court which includes known falsehoods within any judgement.

It was not within her remit to conduct a criminal investigation into what happened to Madeleine McCann.

[Mr Gray]

I have never seen a judge yet or a court which includes known falsehoods within any judgement.

the judgement makes statements re the dogs that are not true...do you have an explanation for that

[Alice Purjorick]

we would need a definition of what is meant by a proven fact according to the court judgement as several as what are recorded as proven 100% are not.......

So you keep saying. How about listing them all for us together with your reasons for believing they are not proven ?

[Mr Gray]

That is not immediately obvious.  However to requote an extract from the piece you selected from the Final Police Report.

"This witness places in cause [doubt] the allegation (by the parents) of the daily routine of visits every 30 minutes to check the children who had been left on their own.

In plain English this means the witness places in doubt the parents version of events.

[ ] added

you have said witnesses place in doubt the parents version of events....that is the first true thing you have posted...that does not make the parents proven liars...can you not see that

[Mr Gray]

So you keep saying. How about listing them all for us together with your reasons for believing they are not proven ?

are you still not aware of the facts

[Alice Purjorick]

This is merely your opinion based on very little substance.  Do you really think the police wouldn't have called with her on numerous occasions as well as check out her experience with the friend she called in distress?  I give up!

Do you know or indeed does anyone know whether the Portuguese police operate a notebook system similar in principle to the UK PNB system?

[Mr Gray]

So you keep saying. How about listing them all for us together with your reasons for believing they are not proven ?

PROVED FACTS

Taking into account the matter considered undisputed in the selection of facts and the decision handed down in due course after producing the matter of evidence and discussing the case, the following facts are demonstrated :

1.  The claimants KM and GM are married to each other

 2.  The claimant Madeleine Beth McCann was born on the 12.05.2003 and is the daughter of the claimants Kate and Gerry McCann

 3.  The claimant Sean McCann was born on the 01.02.2005 and is the son of the claimants Kate and Gerry McCann

 4.  The claimant Amelie McCann was born on the 01.02.2005 and is the daughter of the claimants Kate and Gerry McCann

 5.  The claimant Madeleine Beth McCann has been missing since the 3rd of May of 2007, and the criminal investigation n. 201/07.0GALGS was open by the Public Prosecutor of the Republic for the Portimao District.

6. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in the apartment 5A, Ocean Club [alínea AR) of the undisputed facts].

7. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in a vehicle rented by the claimants after the disappearance of MMC [alínea AS) of the undisputed facts].


so the court...who do not accept the alerts as evidence...are now claiming the dogs alerted to human blood and cadaver as PROVEN

[Mr Gray]

You said the some of proven facts aren't proven. I am just asking you the statement maker to put your money where your mouth is and tell us which ones and why. What I may or may not know is irrelevant to your statement.

The fact that you do not know is relevant...the facts are above

[Carana]

PROVED FACTS

Taking into account the matter considered undisputed in the selection of facts and the decision handed down in due course after producing the matter of evidence and discussing the case, the following facts are demonstrated :

1.  The claimants KM and GM are married to each other

 2.  The claimant Madeleine Beth McCann was born on the 12.05.2003 and is the daughter of the claimants Kate and Gerry McCann

 3.  The claimant Sean McCann was born on the 01.02.2005 and is the son of the claimants Kate and Gerry McCann

 4.  The claimant Amelie McCann was born on the 01.02.2005 and is the daughter of the claimants Kate and Gerry McCann

 5.  The claimant Madeleine Beth McCann has been missing since the 3rd of May of 2007, and the criminal investigation n. 201/07.0GALGS was open by the Public Prosecutor of the Republic for the Portimao District.

6. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in the apartment 5A, Ocean Club [alínea AR) of the undisputed facts].

7. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in a vehicle rented by the claimants after the disappearance of MMC [alínea AS) of the undisputed facts].


so the court...who do not accept the alerts as evidence...are now claiming the dogs alerted to human blood and cadaver as PROVEN

And again, she is quoting from what she was able to find in the files... i.e. that someone had stated it.

If one understood as facts that have been ascertained in the investigation those that, with rigour and according to procedural-penal dogmatism, resulted from the investigation, it is believed that only one would deserve that qualification – the disappearance of Madeleine MacCann.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id505.html

[Alice Purjorick]

PROVED FACTS

Taking into account the matter considered undisputed in the selection of facts and the decision handed down in due course after producing the matter of evidence and discussing the case, the following facts are demonstrated :

1.  The claimants KM and GM are married to each other

 2.  The claimant Madeleine Beth McCann was born on the 12.05.2003 and is the daughter of the claimants Kate and Gerry McCann

 3.  The claimant Sean McCann was born on the 01.02.2005 and is the son of the claimants Kate and Gerry McCann

 4.  The claimant Amelie McCann was born on the 01.02.2005 and is the daughter of the claimants Kate and Gerry McCann

 5.  The claimant Madeleine Beth McCann has been missing since the 3rd of May of 2007, and the criminal investigation n. 201/07.0GALGS was open by the Public Prosecutor of the Republic for the Portimao District.

6. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in the apartment 5A, Ocean Club [alínea AR) of the undisputed facts].

7. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in a vehicle rented by the claimants after the disappearance of MMC [alínea AS) of the undisputed facts].


so the court...who do not accept the alerts as evidence...are now claiming the dogs alerted to human blood and cadaver as PROVEN

So it would appear.

[Alice Purjorick]

perhaps you could explain why you think then statement re the dogs are in the proved facts......I would say that might settle this discussion

Because the judge thought it was the relevant place to put that particular section of the archiving report.

[Alfred R Jones]

It doesn't matter what evidence we dig up from our limited resources and press inventions but the police investigated all this and stated in their final report to the public prosecutor that the checks story was suspect.  The public prosecutors thereafter stated it as fact in their archiving report to the Attorney General.  The links are all there at the top of page 1 so I suggest you read them.

We don't need to prove anything, the proper authorities in Portugal already did that.

How did they prove it then?  Are you saying in Portugal you can be branded a liar by the courts without even having a trial?

[Mr Gray]

How did they prove it then?  Are you saying in Portugal you can be branded a liar by the courts without even having a trial?
And less of the insults please if you don't mind.  I'm not the fool around here.

the courts haven't ..angelo has...he has taken a statement  "witnesses doubt the McCanns version of events" to the court stated they had lied...I will leave it to the readers of this forum to decide.

[Alfred R Jones]

I have never seen a judge yet or a court which includes known falsehoods within any judgement.

Proven Facts means exactly that, proven facts!

Did you read what the forum owner wrote earlier on this thread?

As has already been pointed out, the (damages) Court was not concerned with the evidence of the case itself and certainly never elicited any during the trial. .

Do you understand what that means?  Do you disagree?

[stephen25000]

Obviously the guests to this forum probably already have an interest in this forum and will know what the court found or proved or not proved.