Why don't people believe the Mccanns story of Abduction ?

[G-Unit]

so when the Met said it had "forensically examined" the timeline you think they basically just held up the scrap of paper written by McCanns' mates and said "this will do" do you?

That depends on whether they had more information than the PJ had in the files. There's no evidence that they asked the PJ to find and interview the Resort staff again, but they could have. They could have tracked down and interviewed the other diners. They could have interviewed everyone who was on holiday there. Their memories might be unreliable 4-6 years after the event, but you never know. I am speaking only about what I know, which is the information they had from the first investigation, and the capabilities of a database, which stores and retrieves the information you enter into it, no more.

[Carana]

Yet more bollocks from Tv Mais

The only known virtual reconstruction was made by the professors Paulo Sargento (Criminal psychology) and by Pedro Gamito (IT department) of the Lusófona University, using as its basis the statements of the McCanns and their friends. By means of specific software, the statements given to the PJ were evaluated and cross-checked. Thus, one can now understand better the possibilities of each one of them being at a certain place and time, as stated by them.

This work by the Portuguese scientists was ignored, but now Scotland Yard has revealed that they will also use a software program to reconstruct those events. In English, that might be more enlightening.

Well TV Mais really is bollocks. LOL

No paper had the same times for anything.


Times Online

From Times Online October 9, 2007
David Brown

Reconstruction 'casts doubt on Madeleine McCann kidnapping'

Watch the reconstruction

A significant study into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann has indicated that kidnapping would be inconsistent with the evidence.

Paulo Sargento, a criminal psychologist at Lusófona University in Libson, has produced a 3D reconstruction of events at the Ocean Club on the evening Madeleine disappeared.

He used minute-by-minute breakdowns of events published in The Times, the respected Portuguese newspapers Público and Sol and the BBC to test all hypotheses put forward by the Portuguese authorities.

Dr Sargento cross-checked times and events from the moment that Kate and Gerry McCann went to pick up their children from the resort’s kindergarten at 4pm, until 10pm, when Mrs McCann reported that Madeleine was missing from their apartment.

He found that from the moment when the McCanns arrived at the tapas restaurant at 8pm, seven people in their party got up a total of 14 times in two hours.

Dr Sargento told SIC television: “There were people passing almost every five minutes. The question is how, in that time, could it be possible with so many people coming and going that no one saw someone coming in through the window without being seen? We have concluded this theory is very inconsistent.”

It is understood that the recreation will be made available to the Polícia Judiciária to assist them in creating a definitive timeline of events on the Ocean Club.

 http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic542.html

[Brietta]

I don't see the issue. HOLMES2 is database / project management tool, which may well have 3rd-party add-on features not mentioned in the blurb. It may also be used to extract information for use by other types of specialised software.

3D crime scene / reconstruction software exists, so I don't see the big deal about establishing a forensic timeline.

I think the big deal about the establishment of a forensic timeline is that it allows for an abductor to enter the premises and exit with Madeleine without the inconvenience of bumping into one of the checkers.
Had it worked out differently its conclusion would have been held as irrefutable by some.

All conjecture or in my opinion or whatever.

[Carana]

I think the big deal about the establishment of a forensic timeline is that it allows for an abductor to enter the premises and exit with Madeleine without the inconvenience of bumping into one of the checkers.
Had it worked out differently its conclusion would have been held as irrefutable by some.

All conjecture or in my opinion or whatever.

Yes, I realise that. What I don't see is why some people are doubting that the police have the capacity to do so.

[Carana]

This is interesting... Aside from the fact that the times are wrong, did the papers ever publish the comings-and-goings of the group?

A few more papers fluttering out of windows?


Dr Sargento cross-checked times and events from the moment that Kate and Gerry McCann went to pick up their children from the resort’s kindergarten at 4pm, until 10pm, when Mrs McCann reported that Madeleine was missing from their apartment.

He found that from the moment when the McCanns arrived at the tapas restaurant at 8pm, seven people in their party got up a total of 14 times in two hours.

Dr Sargento told SIC television: “There were people passing almost every five minutes. The question is how, in that time, could it be possible with so many people coming and going that no one saw someone coming in through the window without being seen? We have concluded this theory is very inconsistent.”

[Carana]

Another thing I don't understand. The McCanns' initial assumption was that someone must have come in and out through the window.

But the McCanns weren't the experts, the PJ were supposed to be. it's not as if the McCanns had said they'd seen someone climbing out of it, so why did Amaral and pals assume that an abduction couldn't have occurred because it would have been difficult to get out of a window when they knew that the patio door was open? Not to mention the lack of investigation into keys.

[G-Unit]

This is interesting... Aside from the fact that the times are wrong, did the papers ever publish the comings-and-goings of the group?

A few more papers fluttering out of windows?


Dr Sargento cross-checked times and events from the moment that Kate and Gerry McCann went to pick up their children from the resort’s kindergarten at 4pm, until 10pm, when Mrs McCann reported that Madeleine was missing from their apartment.

He found that from the moment when the McCanns arrived at the tapas restaurant at 8pm, seven people in their party got up a total of 14 times in two hours.

Dr Sargento told SIC television: “There were people passing almost every five minutes. The question is how, in that time, could it be possible with so many people coming and going that no one saw someone coming in through the window without being seen? We have concluded this theory is very inconsistent.”

I expect the newspapers published all sorts of information, most of it wrong. Only 5 people left the table 7 times according to the official statements.

Gerry once (9.05ish).
Jane twice (9.15, 9.40).
Matt twice (9, 9.30).
Russell once (9.30).
Kate once (10).

Between 9pm and 9.20 Matt, Jane, Gerry and Jez were around.
At 9.30 to 9.35 Matt was around.
Jane went up to relieve Russell at 9.40 and he returned at 9.45.
Kate went between 9.50 (Matt) and 10.03 (Gerry)

[sadie]

This is interesting... Aside from the fact that the times are wrong, did the papers ever publish the comings-and-goings of the group?

A few more papers fluttering out of windows?


Dr Sargento cross-checked times and events from the moment that Kate and Gerry McCann went to pick up their children from the resort’s kindergarten at 4pm, until 10pm, when Mrs McCann reported that Madeleine was missing from their apartment.

He found that from the moment when the McCanns arrived at the tapas restaurant at 8pm, seven people in their party got up a total of 14 times in two hours.

Dr Sargento told SIC television: “There were people passing almost every five minutes. The question is how, in that time, could it be possible with so many people coming and going that no one saw someone coming in through the window without being seen? We have concluded this theory is very inconsistent.”

I cant take too much notice of a man, Doctor or not, who cannot even get the times of events right.  Especially when he claims he is cross-checking important facts.



I am doing this from memory but IIRC

1)  Gerry Mccann met up with the children from kindergarten at 4.30 or 4.45 not at 4.00
2)  That the Mccanns arrived at the tapas restaurant at 8.30ish not 8pm.
3)  As for counting the number of times various parties got up to check their chioldren I really cannot be bothered, but I will warrent that it is well less than 14, and probably in reality about 7 or 8 times
4)  In a period of 1 and a half hours NOT 2 hours !


NOT BAD FOR A PROFESSIONAL MAN, a doctor at that   %&5%£


4 out of 5 wrong.    I wonder why he put out this disinformation?

[Carana]

I cant take too much notice of a man, Doctor or not, who cannot even get the times of events right.  Especially when he claims he is cross-checking important facts.



I am doing this from memory but IIRC

1)  Gerry Mccann met up with the children from kindergarten at 4.30 or 4.45 not at 4.00
2)  That the Mccanns arrived at the tapas restaurant at 8.30ish not 8pm.
3)  As for counting the number of times various parties got up to check their chioldren I really cannot be bothered, but I will warrent that it is well less than 14, and probably in reality about 7 or 8 times
4)  In a period of 1 and a half hours NOT 2 hours !


NOT BAD FOR A PROFESSIONAL MAN, a doctor at that   %&5%£


4 out of 5 wrong.    I wonder why he put out this disinformation?

No idea, Sadie.

This was before he and Amaral started putting out the idea that the pink blanket had 'disappeared' and could have been used as a shroud. Both of them should have known that a GNR dog handler had taken it...
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/maddies-blanket-missing-from-ocean-club.html

[G-Unit]

Another thing I don't understand. The McCanns' initial assumption was that someone must have come in and out through the window.

But the McCanns weren't the experts, the PJ were supposed to be. it's not as if the McCanns had said they'd seen someone climbing out of it, so why did Amaral and pals assume that an abduction couldn't have occurred because it would have been difficult to get out of a window when they knew that the patio door was open? Not to mention the lack of investigation into keys.

The open window was said by the McCanns to show that an 'abductor' had been in the apartment. Their friends and family publicised their theory, which was that the 'abductor' had either entered or exited via the window. The PJ questioned that, due to the fact that there was no forensic evidence of anyone climbing in or out of the window and because of the difficulty of doing so. If you think that was their only reason for disbelieving the abduction story you are mistaken.

[Carana]

The open window was said by the McCanns to show that an 'abductor' had been in the apartment. Their friends and family publicised their theory, which was that the 'abductor' had either entered or exited via the window. The PJ questioned that, due to the fact that there was no forensic evidence of anyone climbing in or out of the window and because of the difficulty of doing so. If you think that was their only reason for disbelieving the abduction story you are mistaken.

It was certainly one of the reasons that the initial PJ team (and media pals) kept harping on about...

[sadie]

No idea, Sadie.

This was before he and Amaral started putting out the idea that the pink blanket had 'disappeared' and could have been used as a shroud. Both of them should have known that a GNR dog handler had taken it...
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/07/maddies-blanket-missing-from-ocean-club.html

I had forgotten that.

Again that is a kind of propaganda against the parents and for Amarals "Theory". 
Using her pink blanket as a shroud.  what evil minded men.

[pathfinder73]

McCanns leave apartment
Jane passes apartment
Matt/Rachel passes apartment
Russ passes apartment
Paynes/Webster passes apartment
Matt passes apartment twice

7 from 8:30 to 9

Gerry goes to apartment
Jane passes apartment twice
Russ/Matt passes apartment
Matt goes into apartment

5 from 9 to 9:30

Jane passes apartment
Russ passes apartment
Kate goes to apartment

3 from 9:35 to alarm raised time

It works out on average that every 5 or 6 minutes somebody from the group went inside or passed that apartment.

[G-Unit]

Yes, I realise that. What I don't see is why some people are doubting that the police have the capacity to do so.

No-one is doubting that the police can create a timeline from the times given. I can do that myself. What neither the T9 nor the police can do is prove that those times are correct, unless witnesses unconnected with the group saw them at the times given. Six of the group said on 4th May the alarm was raised at 10pm. Six witnesses suggested it was raised earlier. Who's right?

[Brietta]

It was certainly one of the reasons that the initial PJ team (and media pals) kept harping on about...

The only person who knows why the window was opened is the person who opened it or who left it unlocked.  The only person who knows the reason for the shutter being raised is the person who raised it.

It is easy to work out why a mother would immediately jump to the conclusion her child had been kidnapped on finding the window open and the child missing.

A more professionally conducted investigation would have ascertained the rights and wrongs of the situation taking that natural concern into consideration.
There was little chance of that given the weird interpretation put on the request for a priest.