Why don't people believe the Mccanns story of Abduction ?

[stephen25000]

I don't suppose she cares all that much what you think, Stephen.  The difference is that she doesn't have to prove it.

Well it's their actions which triggered the case and cost the tax payer £12 million plus.

and how much of their own money, and I don't mean donated money, have the used to search for Madeleine ?

[sadie]

AND HOW MANY OF THESE PEOPLE LEFT THEIR CHILDREN FOR HOURS ON END IN UNLOCKED ACCOMMODATION, WHILST THEY WINED AND DINED WITH FRIENDS ?

and I'm not angry.

Just making the point you always want to ignore.

Probably most stephen, but after what happened to Madeleine, they aren't going to admit now are they ?

Please do not forget that the tapas group were as close as many peoople are when they are in their back garden.  Our back garden was 50 metrees long and it seemede and was OK for us. The Mccanns were extraordinarily unlucky.

Go and visit and LOOK.  Assuming the foliage has just been cut back as was the case when then Mccanns were there, you will be able to see nearly all of the patio windows and some of the steps up.   The patio area was flooded with light and they had direct visiion.

The Front door needed a key to open it, but almost certainly that was thhe way that the abductor entered because being at a dead end and deeply recessed, no-body passed by and no-body could see it unless that personn deliberately moved over from his route in or out across the car park.  It was also in almost complete blackness and there was a high wall to bob down bwhind if by great mischance, anyone should suddenly appear.  Also an escape rioute in extreme urgency for the fit over the wall into Rua F G Martins [the road that we see Jane Tanner walking up on video]   

A robber/abductors paradise route in and out.

Returning to your question, my bet is that quite a percentage of parents , altho they might not admit it now -  used to dine out far farther away than the Mccanns from their children. 

And this has gone on historically all over the world.  Parents relying on the hotels etc to keep a regular watch.


With the advent of mobile phones, my bet is that it became ever more prevalent.



I think that you are out of touch with the real world, stephen.   What the Mccanns did, is minimal in relation to probably millions of other parents who thought the hotel could look after their kids.   The tapas group could see their apartments at only 50 metres away, did their own regular checks and were well within eyesight. 

Supremely better than most parents who chose to eat out at a distance and relying on others to do the checks.   You are far too hard on The Mccanns, stephen

[stephen25000]

Probably most stephen, but after what happened to Madeleine, they aren't going to admit now are they ?

Please do not forget that the tapas group were as close as many peoople are when they are in their back garden.  Our back garden was 50 metrees long and it seemede and was OK for us. The Mccanns were extraordinarily unlucky.

Go and visit and LOOK.  Assuming the foliage has just been cut back as was the case when then Mccanns were there, you will be able to see nearly all of the patio windows and some of the steps up.   The patio area was flooded with light and they had direct visiion.

The Front door needed a key to open it, but almost certainly that was thhe way that the abductor entered because being at a dead end and deeply recessed, no-body passed by and no-body could see it unless that personn deliberately moved over from his route in or out across the car park.  It was also in almost complete blackness and there was a high wall to bob down bwhind if by great mischance, anyone should suddenly appear.  Also an escape rioute in extreme urgency for the fit over the wall into Rua F G Martins [the road that we see Jane Tanner walking up on video]   

A robber/abductors paradise route in and out.

Returning to your question, my bet is that quite a percentage of parents , altho they might not admit it now -  used to dine out far farther away than the Mccanns from their children. 

And this has gone on historically all over the world.  Parents relying on the hotels etc to keep a regular watch.


With the advent of mobile phones, my bet is that it became ever more prevalent.



I think that you are out of touch with the real world, stephen.   What the Mccanns did, is minimal in realtion to probably millions of other parents who thought the hotel could look afterr their kids.   The tapas group could see their apatrtments, did their own regular checks and were within eyesight. 

Supremely better than most parents who chose to eat out at a distance and relying on others to do the checks.   You are far too hard on The Mccanns

Right Sadie.

Cite the figures of people who have done exactly the same as the mccanns, and............

Have left their children in unlocked accomodation for several hours in a foreign country and went out to wine and dine.

Personal anecdotes don't count.

[sadie]

McCanns leave apartment
Jane passes apartment
Matt/Rachel passes apartment
Russ passes apartment
Paynes/Webster passes apartment
Matt passes apartment twice
 
7 from 8:30 to 9
 
Gerry goes to apartment
Jane passes apartment twice
Russ/Matt passes apartment
Matt goes into apartment
 
5 from 9 to 9:30
 
Jane passes apartment
Russ passes apartment
Kate goes to apartment
 
3 from 9:35 to alarm raised time
 
It works out on average that every 5 or 6 minutes somebody from the group went inside or passed that apartment.

That is a different list to Dr Sargentos.  His list as specified came to 7 or 8 times.
 
Your list talks about passing the apartment.  Nobody apart from Matt went anywhere near Madeleines window or the front door, both of which were in near darkness.  No big lamps a la Pat Brown then.  No trees cut down to let in the light then, a la Pat Brown.  The front door particularily was in deep blackness.  IIRC the front door lamp had been broken.  Please correct me if I am wrong.
 
With the darkness in that parking area and the area of 5A front door and window, and the path diagonally across the parking lot, making them beyond perferal vision  [see Heris scientific report on periferal vision] nobody would notice any quiet goings on there.  And, of course there was a wall that anyone could bob down behind if anyone crossed thye parking lot.
 
It seems very likely that there was a watcher either on the side balcony of block 6 (as in Sadies Theory, now hidden in other stuff so impossible to find....  Strange that Pathfinders very unlikely Theory has its own thread!)) or possibly a moving watcher in the alleyway between blocks 4 and 5, as I think SIL suggested.  The watcher could easily signal, using a fine beamed torch or even a cigaret lighter if there was danger of anyone coming.
 
The actual pick up of Madeleine could have been done, in and out, within a minute.  There were plenty of gaps of 10 minutes or more.
 
I think the most sensible, therefore likely, time was immediately Gerry left.   
 
The sighting of Tannerman co-incides perfectly with this time.  Also Matt thought that the childrens bedroom was a bit light, maybe coming in from outside. 
 
This kinda backs up the timing of abduction being after Gerry left.
 
This is also why I find it difficult to believe that a few people deny an abduction could have happened.  Plenty of time for it with the right organisation and set up

[Benice]

I wasn't shouting.

So can you provide cited figures as to how many people have done exactly the same as the mccanns ?

and then perhaps, give figures for how many people have never done what they did.

Capital letters is considered to be shouting!

Can you provide proof that no-one has ever gone out leaving a door/window unlocked while their children were left asleep inside?   Of course you can't so why ask such silly questions - unless it's just to deflect?

The fact that the Listening Service is offered is proof in itself of the scale of the nos of parents who have used it and want to continue using it.     It has obviously been a very popular service because it has lasted for decades.     If it wasn't popular with parents - it would have died out long ago.

Common sense please.

[sadie]

Right Sadie.

Cite the figures of people who have done exactly the same as the mccanns, and............

Have left their children in unlocked accomodation for several hours in a foreign country and went out to wine and dine.

Personal anecdotes don't count.

Please do not falsify facts stephen. 

They did NOT go out.  They were in the grounds to their hotel/apartments

Common observation of others + the fact that hotels arranged checks on bedrooms confirm what I am saying.

In other words use your common sense, of which I imagine you have plenty when you are willing tro use it.   IMO, your hatred of The Mccanns influences your reasoning, Stephen

[stephen25000]

Please do not falsify facts stephen. 

They did NOT go out.  They were in the grounds to their hotel/apartments

Common observation of others + the fact that hotels arranged checks on bedrooms confirm what I am saying.

In other words use your common sense, of which I imagine you have plenty when you are willing tro use it.   IMO, your hatred of The Mccanns influences your reasoning, Stephen

They were not in the garden.

They were not in the apartment.

The children were left in unlocked accomodation in a foreign country, for 5 successive evenings, whilst they wined and dined.

Mostly unverified checks.

and of course they locked the apartment during the daytime to protect their valuables, though obviously doing the same in the evening was not on their agenda.

Their behaviour was illogical.

As to the mccanns  themselves, it isn't hatred, merely contempt.

[sadie]

Capital letters is considered to be shouting!

Can you provide proof that no-one has ever gone out leaving a door/window unlocked while their children were left asleep inside?   Of course you can't so why ask such silly questions - unless it's just to deflect?

The fact that the Listening Service is offered is proof in itself of the scale of the nos of parents who have used it and want to continue using it.     It has obviously been a very popular service because it has lasted for decades.     If it wasn't popular with parents - it would have died out long ago.

Common sense please.

And in this case, the front door needed a key to open it and only unliocked door was the patio door, which as you know was overlooked by the Tapas group dining only 50 metres away.   Amaral said that NO abductor/intruder would have dared enter by the patio door with it being so close and also illuminated by the street lamp opposite.

[xtina]

They were not in the garden.

They were not in the apartment.

The children were left in unlocked accomodation in a foreign country, for 5 successive evenings, whilst they wined and dined.

Mostly unverified checks.

and of course they locked the apartment during the daytime to protect their valuables, though obviously doing the same in the evening was not on their agenda.

Their behaviour was illogical.

As to the mccanns  themselves, it isn't hatred, merely contempt.

i have watched the Cd's ...made by Richard hall .....and i can categorically say the time line will be blown right out

 of the water with ..it will show there was no abduction ...

sorry stephen ...it some how ended up in your post

[Alfred R Jones]

Jane wasn't there. Fiona and Dianne mentioned no time on 4th May. Dianne had caught up in her second interview and gave 10pm. Fiona gave 9.45 to 10pm in her Rog. interview. Of the group, the Paynes/Webster gave very few times in any of their statements.

In the second interviews Gerry's time was now 10.13pm. Russell stayed with 10pm, Matthew and Rachael had moved the time to slightly before 10pm. (9.50 Matt, 9.55-10 Rachael). There's now a difference of around 20 minutes between Matt and Gerry.

so Gerry, one of the key collaborators decides to shaft the rest of the collaborators by changing the time to 10.13pm, how very mysterious... &%+((£

[stephen25000]

No worries Xtina.

[G-Unit]

so Gerry, one of the key collaborators decides to shaft the rest of the collaborators by changing the time to 10.13pm, how very mysterious... &%+((£

It's a fact, that's all. From a unanimous time of 10pm one person is now moving it later, others are moving it earlier. Various explanations can be assumed, from a deliberate intention to just not remembering. I don't know why it happened, but it did. 

[Miss Taken Identity]

It can be stated as a fact by the people involved.  Or do you have proof that Kate was not being truthful?

proof of not being truthful can only be established when all the evidence is collated and presented.

There is no physical evidence that the window was jemmied.
There is no physical evidence of someone entering via the window.
There is no physical evidence of anyone exiting the window with a child in arms.
There is no independent witness statement of anyone seeing anything afore mentioned take place.

If Kate wants state as a  fact, without evidence, then she is open to questioning, and should offer up evidence to back this up... to prove she is not making it up...in the absence of any evidence being present, then it is not unreasonable for accusations  that this is  a made up story whether it was stated as a fact or not.

It is also strange that she was there with the window story as an entry/ exit story for the press, but then it sneaked out that there was another exit/ entry via an unlocked door!

The window version would place an intruder/abductor in the minds of many as the only way to account for Maddies Disappearance, however the unlocked door was offering up different scenarios. accidental death, abduction via a open door, walked and wandered. You can see quite clearly why the 'window' scenario was pushed.

PR darling, PR.

[Eleanor]

proof of not being truthful can only be established when all the evidence is collated and presented.

There is no physical evidence that the window was jemmied.
There is no physical evidence of someone entering via the window.
There is no physical evidence of anyone exiting the window with a child in arms.
There is no independent witness statement of anyone seeing anything afore mentioned take place.

If Kate wants state as a  fact, without evidence, then she is open to questioning, and should offer up evidence to back this up... to prove she is not making it up...in the absence of any evidence being present, then it is not unreasonable for accusations  that this is  a made up story whether it was stated as a fact or not.

It is also strange that she was there with the window story as an entry/ exit story for the press, but then it sneaked out that there was another exit/ entry via an unlocked door!

The window version would place an intruder/abductor in the minds of many as the only way to account for Maddies Disappearance, however the unlocked door was offering up different scenarios. accidental death, abduction via a open door, walked and wandered. You can see quite clearly why the 'window' scenario was pushed.

PR darling, PR.

Libel, Darling, Libel.

[Miss Taken Identity]

Libel, Darling, Libel.

There is nothing libelous about my post. And if it were, then bring it on in court because she would then have to prove that I had commited liable by...providing physical evidence to back up her statement...hmmm

Not going to happen is it...hahaha