Why don't people believe the Mccanns story of Abduction ?

[Jean-Pierre]

Does for breaking and entering.

Not correct.  Breaking and entering simply requires force (no matter how small) to be used.  Pushing open a door would suffice.   

[Alfred R Jones]

How do you know that? They may have just lifted it straight from the PJ Files.

I know it because they have told us that the timeline has been subjected to "forensic" scrutiny.  If you think that means they simply alighted on tne scrawled timeline as put together by members of the McCanns group that night, that is your problem.  Perhaps you can let us know why you believe Operation Grange is intent on deceiving us at every opportunity?

[G-Unit]

I know it because they have told us that the timeline has been subjected to "forensic" scrutiny.  If you think that means they simply alighted on tne scrawled timeline as put together by members of the McCanns group that night, that is your problem.  Perhaps you can let us know why you believe Operation Grange is intent on deceiving us at every opportunity?

You seem to think I'm accusing Operation Grange of deliberately deceiving the public. I haven't said that because I don't think they did any such thing. They looked at the timeline between 8.20pm and 10pm and found gaps where an abduction could have happened. That's not difficult. Did they re-examine the witnesses who said the alarm was raised before 10pm? Did they find other witnesses who confirmed the 10pm alarm raising time? I don't know and neither do you.


The careful and critical analysis of the time line has been absolutely key. Primarily, we’re focussed on the area between 8:30 and 10. We know that at 8 thirty, that was the time that Mr and Mrs McCann went down to the Tapas area for their dinner and we know that around 10pm, that was when Mrs McCann found that Madeleine was missing.
https://shininginluz.wordpress.com/2015/09/29/madeleine-crimewatch-2013-english-transcript-pt-3/

Later, at around 21:40, he left the restaurant passing through the same esplanade where moments before, he had seen the same table occupied by the three couples, empty, who had left in the meanwhile various items, principally clothing. He was told by his colleagues that the child who had disappeared was a child of one of those couples;
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ARLINDO-PELEGA.htm

When questioned about the disappearance, she says she heard about it on that night at about 22.00 when an English tourist arrived at the Millenium restaurant to ask whether anyone had seen a lost little girl.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARIA_ROSA.htm

He heard about the news being investigated on the evening of 3rd May at about 21.30 - 21.40 from P**** B******, a Dutchman and owner of the Atlantico restaurant, who passed by the witness near the Baptista supermarket, in P da L and who asked for his help in searching for Madeleine.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BAREND_WEIJDOM.htm

Dinner would end at about 21.45, a few minutes later the witness looked at the table and saw that there was nobody there and one of his colleagues told them that all the guests had left the table in a hurry. In any case, he remembers having heard shouts from the direction of Madeleine's parents' apartment.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RICARDO-A-D-L-OLIVEIRA.htm

He then left again running to continue searching. I believe that this was between 21H30 and 22H00 but do not remember with certainty.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JERONIMO-SALCEDAS.htm

he was on duty and was contacted by a member of staff from the Tapas Restaurant between 09.30 and 22.00 who informed him that the daughter of some guests who were dining there had disappeared.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HELDER_LUIS.htm

[xtina]

@ alfred

I know it because they have told us that the timeline has been subjected to "forensic" scrutiny.  If you think that means they simply alighted on tne scrawled timeline as put together by members of the McCanns group that night, that is your problem.  Perhaps you can let us know why you believe Operation Grange is intent on deceiving us at every opportunity?
....................................................

there is no proof that the timeline is true ....the last real sighting of maddie was six hours before she was reported missing

same as the last photo....the sun was not out that day or the day before or the day before that ...it was a dull day ...so why was g mcc wearing sunglasses....in the sun

[Mr Gray]

The critical point is...are the McCanns telling the truth.....the fact that they are not suspects means SY  believe them...therefore the window was open and Maddie was abducted

[G-Unit]

The critical point is...are the McCanns telling the truth.....the fact that they are not suspects means SY  believe them...therefore the window was open and Maddie was abducted

The fact that they are not suspects may be due to the remit which doesn't require SY to decide whether to believe them or not.

[slartibartfast]

The critical point is...are the McCanns telling the truth.....the fact that they are not suspects means SY  believe them...therefore the window was open and Maddie was abducted

Scary how much rests on a single comment from so long ago.

[Mr Gray]

The fact that they are not suspects may be due to the remit which doesn't require SY to decide whether to believe them or not.

the idea that SY would spend 11 million without looking at the parents is totally ridiculous

[Mr Gray]

Scary how much rests on a single comment from so long ago.

It isn't based on a single comment.....do you think the McCanns are being investigated...if so what evidence are you basing this on

[G-Unit]

the idea that SY would spend 11 million without looking at the parents is totally ridiculous

Well it didn't come out of their budget, did it? The government has spent that money, not SY. Cameron's stated intent? To help the parents. The remit? To carry out an investigative review as if the abduction occurred in the UK.

A spokesman for Mr Cameron said he wanted to make sure the Government did “all it can to help them”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/8508469/Madeleine-McCanns-parents-urge-David-Cameron-to-launch-independent-review.html

[Benice]

The fact that they are not suspects may be due to the remit which doesn't require SY to decide whether to believe them or not.

SY still scrutinised/analysed the same files/evidence'/people etc regardless of what the remit was.  The evidence they were examining didn't change no matter what the remit was.

If you not claiming  that because of their remit SY ignored, hid or destroyed any evidence which emerged during their investigations which pointed to the McCanns  - then what are you claiming?   I don't get it.

[pathfinder73]

Well it didn't come out of their budget, did it? The government has spent that money, not SY. Cameron's stated intent? To help the parents. The remit? To carry out an investigative review as if the abduction occurred in the UK.

A spokesman for Mr Cameron said he wanted to make sure the Government did “all it can to help them”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/8508469/Madeleine-McCanns-parents-urge-David-Cameron-to-launch-independent-review.html

They think it's murder don't they? They were looking for a body. I doubt they think Madeleine was wandering in that wasteland and dropped dead.

"Our team that are investigating the, or reviewing the murder of...of sorry, reviewing the missing girl. errr the McCann daughter." BHH

[Alfred R Jones]

You seem to think I'm accusing Operation Grange of deliberately deceiving the public. I haven't said that because I don't think they did any such thing. They looked at the timeline between 8.20pm and 10pm and found gaps where an abduction could have happened. That's not difficult. Did they re-examine the witnesses who said the alarm was raised before 10pm? Did they find other witnesses who confirmed the 10pm alarm raising time? I don't know and neither do you.


The careful and critical analysis of the time line has been absolutely key. Primarily, we’re focussed on the area between 8:30 and 10. We know that at 8 thirty, that was the time that Mr and Mrs McCann went down to the Tapas area for their dinner and we know that around 10pm, that was when Mrs McCann found that Madeleine was missing.
https://shininginluz.wordpress.com/2015/09/29/madeleine-crimewatch-2013-english-transcript-pt-3/

Later, at around 21:40, he left the restaurant passing through the same esplanade where moments before, he had seen the same table occupied by the three couples, empty, who had left in the meanwhile various items, principally clothing. He was told by his colleagues that the child who had disappeared was a child of one of those couples;
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ARLINDO-PELEGA.htm

When questioned about the disappearance, she says she heard about it on that night at about 22.00 when an English tourist arrived at the Millenium restaurant to ask whether anyone had seen a lost little girl.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARIA_ROSA.htm

He heard about the news being investigated on the evening of 3rd May at about 21.30 - 21.40 from P**** B******, a Dutchman and owner of the Atlantico restaurant, who passed by the witness near the Baptista supermarket, in P da L and who asked for his help in searching for Madeleine.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BAREND_WEIJDOM.htm

Dinner would end at about 21.45, a few minutes later the witness looked at the table and saw that there was nobody there and one of his colleagues told them that all the guests had left the table in a hurry. In any case, he remembers having heard shouts from the direction of Madeleine's parents' apartment.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RICARDO-A-D-L-OLIVEIRA.htm

He then left again running to continue searching. I believe that this was between 21H30 and 22H00 but do not remember with certainty.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JERONIMO-SALCEDAS.htm

he was on duty and was contacted by a member of staff from the Tapas Restaurant between 09.30 and 22.00 who informed him that the daughter of some guests who were dining there had disappeared.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HELDER_LUIS.htm

So what do you think this involves "The careful and critical analysis of the time line has been absolutely key"?  Not checking, rechecking, interviewing, reinterviewing and using every tool available be it specially created software, or skilled professional resources?

[pathfinder73]

So what do you think this involves "The careful and critical analysis of the time line has been absolutely key"?  Not checking, rechecking, interviewing, reinterviewing and using every tool available be it specially created software, or skilled professional resources?

First I cross-check and see which statements corroborate. An example: Russell and the waiter who served him. They both said 9:45 returning to the table. Both agreed on the time. Looking at his statement he said they had left the table before 10. He served the steak just before they left the table so he's a good witness.  Matt said Kate left to check at 9:50 which corroborates with his time. Matt had a watch and did all the checks on his children. Rachel never checked.

[Carana]

You seem to think I'm accusing Operation Grange of deliberately deceiving the public. I haven't said that because I don't think they did any such thing. They looked at the timeline between 8.20pm and 10pm and found gaps where an abduction could have happened. That's not difficult. Did they re-examine the witnesses who said the alarm was raised before 10pm? Did they find other witnesses who confirmed the 10pm alarm raising time? I don't know and neither do you.


The careful and critical analysis of the time line has been absolutely key. Primarily, we’re focussed on the area between 8:30 and 10. We know that at 8 thirty, that was the time that Mr and Mrs McCann went down to the Tapas area for their dinner and we know that around 10pm, that was when Mrs McCann found that Madeleine was missing.
https://shininginluz.wordpress.com/2015/09/29/madeleine-crimewatch-2013-english-transcript-pt-3/

Later, at around 21:40, he left the restaurant passing through the same esplanade where moments before, he had seen the same table occupied by the three couples, empty, who had left in the meanwhile various items, principally clothing. He was told by his colleagues that the child who had disappeared was a child of one of those couples;
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ARLINDO-PELEGA.htm

When questioned about the disappearance, she says she heard about it on that night at about 22.00 when an English tourist arrived at the Millenium restaurant to ask whether anyone had seen a lost little girl.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARIA_ROSA.htm

He heard about the news being investigated on the evening of 3rd May at about 21.30 - 21.40 from P**** B******, a Dutchman and owner of the Atlantico restaurant, who passed by the witness near the Baptista supermarket, in P da L and who asked for his help in searching for Madeleine.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BAREND_WEIJDOM.htm

Dinner would end at about 21.45, a few minutes later the witness looked at the table and saw that there was nobody there and one of his colleagues told them that all the guests had left the table in a hurry. In any case, he remembers having heard shouts from the direction of Madeleine's parents' apartment.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RICARDO-A-D-L-OLIVEIRA.htm

He then left again running to continue searching. I believe that this was between 21H30 and 22H00 but do not remember with certainty.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JERONIMO-SALCEDAS.htm

he was on duty and was contacted by a member of staff from the Tapas Restaurant between 09.30 and 22.00 who informed him that the daughter of some guests who were dining there had disappeared.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HELDER_LUIS.htm

There seem to be a few problems with some of these times, though.


When questioned about the disappearance, she says she heard about it on that night at about 22.00 when an English tourist arrived at the Millenium restaurant to ask whether anyone had seen a lost little girl.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARIA_ROSA.htm

But

Concerning the events being investigated, when he was working his normal shift from 16.00 to 24.00 an individual, tall and of British nationality, appeared in the restaurant at about 22.30/22.45, who asked him whether he had seen a little girl who had disappeared, describing her as blonde and three years old and that she was probably wearing pyjamas.

The witness and his colleague, Maria de Fatima, replied that they hadn't, upon which the individual ran out.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID_SANTOS.htm

---


He heard about the news being investigated on the evening of 3rd May at about 21.30 - 21.40 from P**** B******, a Dutchman and owner of the Atlantico restaurant, who passed by the witness near the Baptista supermarket, in P da L and who asked for his help in searching for Madeleine.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BAREND_WEIJDOM.htm


I can't find a statement by Paul Wortelboer (the owner of the Atlantico) in the files to corroborate that.

---


Dinner would end at about 21.45, a few minutes later the witness looked at the table and saw that there was nobody there and one of his colleagues told them that all the guests had left the table in a hurry. In any case, he remembers having heard shouts from the direction of Madeleine's parents' apartment.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RICARDO-A-D-L-OLIVEIRA.htm

But he also says:

When asked he says that the parents and the other members of the group would arrive between 20.00 and 21.00 but that they would only begin to dine when all of them had arrived.

But the table was booked for 20:30. Did any of the group ever arrive that early?

---


He was on duty and was contacted by a member of staff from the Tapas Restaurant between 09.30 and 22.00 who informed him that the daughter of some guests who were dining there had disappeared.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HELDER_LUIS.htm

But he also says just further on:


That he immediately contacted the GNR in Lagos, shortly after this the child's father and John Hill arrived at the reception and he phoned the GNR again.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HELDER_LUIS.htm

But...


With regard to the facts of the investigation. Statements show that he knew of these facts by means of a phone call from Lindsay, head of the child care service, who told him about a female child staying at the resort who had disappeared. This phone call was made to the deponent's mobile phone at about 22.28 on 03-05-2007. About 5 minutes later the deponent presented himself at the resort, because Lindsay had told him that she had initiated the procedure for missing children used by the company and the child had not been found.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_HILL.htm


Is there any record of Helder calling the GNR between 9:30 and 10:00?