Wandering Off Topic

[Wonderfulspam]

Fiona -

 'And by the time I got back everyone else had done their loop and at that point then no-one had seen Madeleine. Erm, I remember saying to Matt at that point 'You go down to main reception and phone the Police'. Erm, and I, I don't know what Matt, erm, I don't know what Dave and Russell did at that point. I said 'I'm going to go up to the', erm, 'Kate and Gerry's apartment'. Gerry had come down at that point. They hadn't found Madeleine, erm, panic was starting really. Erm, tut, after that really I stayed with Kate for the rest of the evening, I didn't, other than going onto their sort of balcony and out the front area of their apartment, I was with Kate. Erm, and Gerry, he was to'ing and fro'ing, in and out, in and out. Erm, it was just awful'.

 Erm, tut, so, you know, I don't know which way they went, but I, I went round the back of, erm, tut, well this way around the back of the apartments and round the back of the tennis courts on the main road and then cut down in front of the Baptista Supermarket and back up, that was the route I did'.
 
 
 1485
 'Yeah'.
 
 
Reply
 'And by the time I got back everyone else had done their loop and at that point then no-one had seen Madeleine. Erm, I remember saying to Matt at that point 'You go down to main reception and phone the Police'. Erm, and I, I don't know what Matt, erm, I don't know what Dave and Russell did at that point. I said 'I'm going to go up to the', erm, 'Kate and Gerry's apartment'. Gerry had come down at that point. They hadn't found Madeleine, erm, panic was starting really. Erm, tut, after that really I stayed with Kate for the rest of the evening, I didn't, other than going onto their sort of balcony and out the front area of their apartment, I was with Kate. Erm, and Gerry, he was to'ing and fro'ing, in and out, in and out. Erm, it was just awful'.
 
 00.49.05
 1485
 'So having got back from your search around the corner, did you go then straight into the McCANN's''
 
 
 Reply
 'Yeah'.
 
 
 1485
 'What did you see when you walked in, describe it''
 
 
 Reply
'At that point, Gerry, I don't think was in the apartment, it was mainly Kate. And Kate was just, huh, utter disbelief and I had disbelief, thinking she's got to be here, you know, what, how can this have happened. And by that point Kate was already saying that the, what she'd found when she'd gone back, which was that the, she'd found the window open and the shutter open and she was convinced at that point that somebody had taken, taken Madeleine and that's what she was telling me and I was like 'They can't have done. They can't have done this', you know. And I looked, I looked throughout the whole apartment and I looked in all the cupboards, under the drawers, under the beds, behind the curtains, everywhere, erm, just, you know, trying to, knowing it had already been done, but you just do. Erm, tut, I looked, when I went into the room that Madeleine was sleeping in, the room was dark, Madeleine, erm,


.....................


When she say's 'Gerry had come down at that point' it is clear it means from the apartment steps initially. She does her loop by the tennis courts & supermarket & when she comes back, Gerry isn't there anymore. Only Kate is in the apartment.

.................................


Reply
 'We, I say we all jumped up, Gerry was first, he just sprinted off with Kate and they, they were ahead of everybody else, erm, cos I had the monitor and mum and I just thought somebody ought to stay behind, I was probably latter in the, in the line, cos I just said to mum, 'Stay put and see if she comes back, keep the monitor' and then you know, me, erm, Jane wasn't there obviously, it was me, Rachael, er Matt, Russell and Dave that sort of, erm, got to the part outside the apartment and that's when we, we just said, 'Right, let's do a quick search, like you go that way, you go that way'.'
 
 
 1485
 'Yes'.
 
 
 Reply
 'Because you see within seconds it was, you know, everybody split up and did a quick, quick search in a different direction'.
 
 
 1485
 'I think my next series of questions I've asked you in relation to you going into the McCANN's apartment, you went in with Kate, what you said earlier on'.
 
 
 Reply
 'Umm'.
 
 
 1485
 'And you described what you saw, you've described the children sleeping, they slept and everything, so are the twins, nothing unusual, but one thing I want, need to ask you is, erm, how long after the alarm was raised, did you end up in the McCANN's apartment''
 
 
 Reply
 'After that initial search, it was as long as it took me to walk round, erm you know to the left of the apartments, round the back of the tennis court and the, so you know, five minutes'.
 
 
 1485
 'Five minutes'.
 
 
 Reply
 'It wasn't long (inaudible)'.
 
 
 1485
 'So from the time that you'd gone racing off after Kate and Gerry'.
 
 
 Reply
 'Yeah'.
 
 
 1485
 'You ended up in the apartment, five minutes later you think''
 
 
 Reply
 'Yeah, five, ten minutes it was certainly within ten minutes it wouldn't have taken me long to (inaudible)'.


...........................


Fiona does an initial sweep & 5 to 10 minutes later, when she goes back only Kate is in the apartment but no sign of Gerry.

[Joe Blogs]

It does indeed but if Gerry?s conversation with Wilkins was at the 9pm check ( Wilkins himself could only narrow it down to between 8.45 and 9.15pm) and it was on the 9.30pm check ( Diane Webster said the group only checked on their own children so it was unlikely Oldfied checked on Madeleine and her siblings) Gerry found Madeleine missing then it explains why Gerry was normal while speaking to Wilkins at 9pm and also the faint calls of ?Madeleine? claimed by a witness around 9.30pm.

OK, thanks, Faith! I will finish reading the Tapas 7 statements and take some notes!

[Joe Blogs]

For all those who think the McCanns were guilty of Maddie's demise, when do you think the grieving time took place?
By that I mean if they were indeed responsible, obviously they would have been shocked by Maddie's death and would have been in hysterics for quite a while before accepting what had happened and then hatching a plan to get rid of the body.
If Maddie was indeed seen on the 3rd may, then Maddie must have somehow died early in the evening, either when Kate was alone or after Gerry got back from his Tennis coaching, so just a couple of hours to grieve, hatch their plan and then meet the Tapas7 in a composed manner, which does seem a bit far fetched, but never the less possible!
If Maddie died the day before on the 2nd then Kate and Gerry had to put on an act for the whole day on the third acting normal to everyone they encountered.
I believe Jeremy Wilkins had a tennis coaching lesson from Gerry on the 3rd and said he acted normally.
I suppose this is the biggest drawback to a guilty McCann scenario really, no abnormal behaviour noted by anyone at all before the alarm was raised!
What are the possible causes of death anyway? Too much sedation, how does that kill you, a heart attack?
An allergy to medicine causing anaphylactic shock causing breathing restriction? That would need quick intervention via an airway into the throat, which both Kate and Gerry would have been capable of, but only if they noticed in time to save suffocation and death!
The only other cause of death would have been severe damage to the head causing a fatal brain bleed or such!
If the McCanns were guilty then it must have been an accident that caused little bleeding anyway it seems?
I suppose unsupervised children have also died from suffocation from plastic bags or getting hanged from a chord of some kind round their neck!
But here's the thing, if something happened to Maddie when her parents were in the apartment then why hide it? So surely if the McCanns were responsible it can only point to death due to an unprescribed substance they administered to Maddie which would have brought about a manslaughter charge or such?
Either that or a frenzied unintentional blow to the head, which would mean only one of the McCanns is guilty and the other is covering for them!
But it has to be said, that just like the abduction claim there is no actual evidence of an accidental death in 5A unless you accept the dog evidence, that is why I remain on the fence!

[jassi]

For all those who think the McCanns were guilty of Maddie's demise, when do you think the grieving time took place?
By that I mean if they were indeed responsible, obviously they would have been shocked by Maddie's death and would have been in hysterics for quite a while before accepting what had happened and then hatching a plan to get rid of the body.
If Maddie was indeed seen on the 3rd may, then Maddie must have somehow died early in the evening, either when Kate was alone or after Gerry got back from his Tennis coaching, so just a couple of hours to grieve, hatch their plan and then meet the Tapas7 in a composed manner, which does seem a bit far fetched, but never the less possible!
If Maddie died the day before on the 2nd then Kate and Gerry had to put on an act for the whole day on the third acting normal to everyone they encountered.
I believe Jeremy Wilkins had a tennis coaching lesson from Gerry on the 3rd and said he acted normally.
I suppose this is the biggest drawback to a guilty McCann scenario really, no abnormal behaviour noted by anyone at all before the alarm was raised!
What are the possible causes of death anyway? Too much sedation, how does that kill you, a heart attack?
An allergy to medicine causing anaphylactic shock causing breathing restriction? That would need quick intervention via an airway into the throat, which both Kate and Gerry would have been capable of, but only if they noticed in time to save suffocation and death!
The only other cause of death would have been severe damage to the head causing a fatal brain bleed or such!
If the McCanns were guilty then it must have been an accident that caused little bleeding anyway it seems?
I suppose unsupervised children have also died from suffocation from plastic bags or getting hanged from a chord of some kind round their neck!
But here's the thing, if something happened to Maddie when her parents were in the apartment then why hide it? So surely if the McCanns were responsible it can only point to death due to an unprescribed substance they administered to Maddie which would have brought about a manslaughter charge or such?
Either that or a frenzied unintentional blow to the head, which would mean only one of the McCanns is guilty and the other is covering for them!
But it has to be said, that just like the abduction claim there is no actual evidence of an accidental death in 5A unless you accept the dog evidence, that is why I remain on the fence!

To answer the last bit, it would have to be that something had brought about her death that could not be explained away.
For example an overdose of a non-prescribed sedative or some  physical damage that could only have ocurred through neglect, or drowning in the bath while under sedation and unattended

Not suggesting this did happen, only possible explanations

[Lace]

Rachael statement -


----- About 21H55/22H00 KATE got up from the table and went alone to her apartment in order to see her children. Five to ten minutes later, she returned the table, crying, visibly shaken, saying that Madeleine had disappeared. Immediately, all of the group, except DIANE, stood up heading for the apartments, and the witness went to see if her daughter was well. Soon after, the men of the group started to do a search around the apartments in an attempt to find the child, at which time the KATE said that the window blinds of MADELEINE's bedroom were open and, as such, she had been taken by someone.

[Lace]

Rachael -

 Reply 'Erm and Jane you know had Evie because she'd been sick, so she was sort of standing by the door, so I sort of you know, I was kind of talk to Gerry and then every now and then I'd go back and check on Grace, erm at one point, probably not that long after, maybe about ten thirty or something, Gerry and I looked at, up at the stairwell and kind of across all the floors of the block that we were in, erm and that was really the, that was all the searching that I really did, just up the stairs, I think they were five floors or something'.
1578 'And that was just you and''
 Reply 'And Gerry'.
1578 'And what time was this''
 Reply 'Erm I mean that would have been you know about half ten or something like that, erm and then'.
 1578 'What was Gerry saying''
 Reply 'Erm I don't know, I don't remember, erm no I don't remember in particular, erm'.
1578 'And how long did you spend doing that search''
 Reply 'It was just really a quick you know, it would have been about five minutes, it was just up the flights and along the, you know the sort of verandas in front of the apartments, erm but there wasn't really anywhere you know, somebody could hide, well you know, if Madeleine had sort of wandered by herself, erm you know there were just really open corridors that we were just kind of looking to see if there was anything down there, erm'.

[Lace]

What  time is 'Gerry supposed to have moved Madeleine again?

[Joe Blogs]

To answer the last bit, it would have to be that something had brought about her death that could not be explained away.
For example an overdose of a non-prescribed sedative or some  physical damage that could only have ocurred through neglect, or drowning in the bath while under sedation and unattended

Not suggesting this did happen, only possible explanations

Yes, I agree, jassi! If the McCanns were responsible, then they knew they were going to jail unless they covered up the death, otherwise they would never have disposed of the body like an old rag, dumping it or burying it within hours of death, no good buys, no funeral, no closure, nothing!
Yes it must have been something very extreme indeed that caused Maddies demise!
Yes a McCann guilt scenario is extraordinary, a family enjoying a holiday, when out of the blue trajedy strikes, the ultimate trajedy, and litterally within a few hours the McCanns have decided to dispose of their child never to be seen again, here today gone tomorrow, just like that!
Abduction or accidental death, who knows, who knows?

[Lace]

To answer the last bit, it would have to be that something had brought about her death that could not be explained away.
For example an overdose of a non-prescribed sedative or some  physical damage that could only have ocurred through neglect, or drowning in the bath while under sedation and unattended

Not suggesting this did happen, only possible explanations

So did the McCann's bring these non prescribed sedatives with them on the holiday, why?   They are both Drs they would know the dangers of giving young children things like that.  Sorry can't imagine that happening.