Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake

[Holly Goodhead]

Can be is meaningless. You need to establish it always degrades blood to the point that one can NEVER EVER successfully obtain a testing result.  You can't establish such because it is not true.  There are numerous cases where blood evidence was used after super glue fuming.  That is true of both conventional as well as DNA testing of blood.

When bodies are left outdoors exposed to the elements for long periods before being found there is a good chance DNA and other evidence will be washed away or so badly decomposed so that no successful results can be obtained.  Yet on some occasions such results still have been successfully obtained.  In such a case you would want to argue the results must have been fabricated because they can never be obtained but there is no such hard and fast rule.

You are doing the equivalent here. You want to argue it is not possible for results to be successfully obtained and thus they must have been fabricated. You are taking passages that say it is possible for the evidence to be spoiled and choosing to interpret such as a hard and fast rule that it will be damaged and no result can ever be obtained.  You are not choosing such position because science tells you this is the case, you have no such sources.  You take this position because your goal is to dismiss the evidence and inventing such a hard rule is the only way for you to be able to do so. There is no such rule though. Nothing is going to come of this.

Rigorous testing will be carried out which will include blood samples the size of the flake introduced to Parker Hale silencers to mirror the location of the flake.  The fuming chamber will be set to also mirror the settings applied to the silencer in JB's case.  If the blood samples are then unable to yield results for testing of blood serology its game over for the flake. 

DNA had not even been envisaged at the time of JB's trial.  I've already pointed out in post #1 and #13 that blood samples for DNA testing  do not need to be of the same quality as blood samples for blood serology testing.

http://www.crime-scene-investigator.net/blood.html

Conventional serological analysis

Analysis of the proteins, enzymes, and antigens present in the blood. These substances are more susceptible to degradation than DNA and this type of testing usually requires a "large" sample (quarter size) in good condition for optimal results. This type of testing is rarely statistically individualizing.

Restriction Fragment Length Polymorphism (RFLP) DNA analysis

Direct analysis of certain DNA sequences present in the white blood cells.DNA is much less susceptible to degradation than proteins, enzymes, and antigens. RFLP DNA testing is commonly statistically individualizing (one out of several million or several billion)

Polymerase Chain Reaction (PCR) DNA analysis

Analysis of certain DNA sequences that have been copied multiple times to a detectable level.PCR based testing works well on degraded samples and "small" samples (pinhead size).

                        ABO                    PGM                    EAP                     AK                    Hp

Nevill Bamber           O                        PGM1+                EAP BA               AK1                   Hp2-1
June Bamber            A                         PGM1+                EAP BA               AK2-1                Hp2-1
Daniel Caffell            O                        PGM2+1+            EAP B                 AK1                   Hp2
Nicholas Caffell         O                        PGM2+1+           EAP B                 AK1                    Hp2
Sheila Caffell            A                        PGM1+                EAP BA               AK1                    Hp2-1

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Blood In Silencer      A                        Nil                        EAP BA              AK1                    Hp2-1
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Robert Boutflour       A                         PGM1+                EAP BA              AK1                     Hp2-1

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ABO = Blood Group System (Antigens)

PGM = Phosphoglucomutase (Enzyme) Breaks down quickly outside the body hence blood in silencer was unable to produce a reading

EAP = Erythrocyte Acid Phosphatase (Enzyme)

AK = Adenylate Kinase (Enzyme)

HP = Haptoglobin (Protein)

[scipio_usmc]

Rigorous testing will be carried out which will include blood samples the size of the flake introduced to Parker Hale silencers to mirror the location of the flake.  The fuming chamber will be set to also mirror the settings applied to the silencer in JB's case.  If the blood samples are then unable to yield results for testing of blood serology its game over for the flake. 

DNA had not even been envisaged at the time of JB's trial.  I've already pointed out in post #1 and #13 that blood samples for DNA testing  do not need to be of the same quality as blood samples for blood serology testing.

http://www.crime-scene-investigator.net/blood.html

Conventional serological analysis

Analysis of the proteins, enzymes, and antigens present in the blood. These substances are more susceptible to degradation than DNA and this type of testing usually requires a "large" sample (quarter size) in good condition for optimal results. This type of testing is rarely statistically individualizing.

Restriction Fragment Length Polymorphism (RFLP) DNA analysis

Direct analysis of certain DNA sequences present in the white blood cells.DNA is much less susceptible to degradation than proteins, enzymes, and antigens. RFLP DNA testing is commonly statistically individualizing (one out of several million or several billion)

Polymerase Chain Reaction (PCR) DNA analysis

Analysis of certain DNA sequences that have been copied multiple times to a detectable level.PCR based testing works well on degraded samples and "small" samples (pinhead size).

                        ABO                    PGM                    EAP                     AK                    Hp

Nevill Bamber           O                        PGM1+                EAP BA               AK1                   Hp2-1
June Bamber            A                         PGM1+                EAP BA               AK2-1                Hp2-1
Daniel Caffell            O                        PGM2+1+            EAP B                 AK1                   Hp2
Nicholas Caffell         O                        PGM2+1+           EAP B                 AK1                    Hp2
Sheila Caffell            A                        PGM1+                EAP BA               AK1                    Hp2-1

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Blood In Silencer      A                        Nil                        EAP BA              AK1                    Hp2-1
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Robert Boutflour       A                         PGM1+                EAP BA              AK1                     Hp2-1

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ABO = Blood Group System (Antigens)

PGM = Phosphoglucomutase (Enzyme) Breaks down quickly outside the body hence blood in silencer was unable to produce a reading

EAP = Erythrocyte Acid Phosphatase (Enzyme)

AK = Adenylate Kinase (Enzyme)

HP = Haptoglobin (Protein)

They would need to establish results can NEVER be obtained not that the results could not be obtained based on 1 test.  That is much more rigorous a demand than establishing it can inhibit getting a result.  It is something that would require large series of tests without any results obtained in any in order to prove results can never be obtained and will always be damaged by the super glue fuming.  As I noted they already obtained results in other cases this was not the first case to do serology testing after super glue fuming.

You have inflated hopes.

[Holly Goodhead]

They would need to establish results can NEVER be obtained not that the results could not be obtained based on 1 test.  That is much more rigorous a demand than establishing it can inhibit getting a result.  It is something that would require large series of tests without any results obtained in any in order to prove results can never be obtained and will always be damaged by the super glue fuming.  As I noted they already obtained results in other cases this was not the first case to do serology testing after super glue fuming.

You have inflated hopes.

That is why I used plural for "samples" and "silencers" in my post above.

The flake was separated out for five tests:

ABO = Blood Group System (Antigens)

PGM = Phosphoglucomutase (Enzyme) Breaks down quickly outside the body hence blood in silencer was unable to produce a reading

EAP = Erythrocyte Acid Phosphatase (Enzyme)

AK = Adenylate Kinase (Enzyme)

HP = Haptoglobin (Protein)

Therefore we kinda get four shots per sample ie if one of the tests for the antigens, enzymes and protein fails across all samples to provide a result its game over for the flake that underpins JB's conviction.  Eg if say for example Haptoglobin fails on every occasion to provide a result its game over for the flake that underpins JB's conviction.

I requested from you some documentary evidence, links etc in a previous post to support your assertions regarding cyanoacrylate fuming and blood serology testing but so far nothing has been forthcoming.

Why would investigators/forensic scientists even consider putting blood evidence in the cyanoacrylate fuming chamber? 

Why do you think DI Cook arranged for the visible blood on the outside of the rifle and silencer to be tested before submitting to the cyanoacrylate fuming chamber?  Or do you think this is just the way it happened ie accident, convenience etc rather than design?

Oh and btw once the test samples leave the cyanoacrylate fuming chamber they will not be tested for 28 days to mirror the time between the silencer entering the fuming chamber (15th Aug) and John Hayward testing the flake (12th Sep).  In fact the blood samples will be deposited in the silencers and left for 8 days before entering the cyacoacrylate fuming chamber to again mirror the time from the prosecutions claim of draw-back (7th Aug) to the time the silencer entered cyanoacrylate fuming chamber (15th Aug).  The silencer was of course exposed to many more potentially harmful environments and opinion will be sought as to whether these could be quantified and factored in eg heat from rifle/silencer.  Current thinking is that the size of the flake alone would not be capable of yielding results never mind anything else.

I remain cautiously optimistic. 

[Holly Goodhead]

I've put together a table of exhibits with their blood serology test results based on Dr Lincoln's letter to JB's solicitor Paul Terzeon.  The letter is contained within this link;

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=276.msg4584#msg4584

                                      ABO   PGM            EAP         AK       Hp             

Nevill Bamber                 O     PGM1+         EAP BA     AK1     Hp2-1
June Bamber                  A     PGM1+         EAP BA     AK2-1   Hp2-1
Daniel Caffell                  O     PGM2+1+    EAP B       AK1      Hp2
Nicholas Caffell              O     PGM2+1+    EAP B       AK1      Hp2
Sheila Caffell                  A     PGM1+         EAP BA     AK1      Hp2-1

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Blood In Silencer            A                         EAP BA     AK1      Hp2-1
Blood Outside Sil.                                                                                     
Rifle                               O                                                               
Carpet Sample 20         A*                                        AK2-1                       
Carpet Sample 21         A*                                        AK2-1                       
Socks                            A                                          AK2-1                       
Watch                                                                                                       
Carpet Fibres 95         O                                           AK2-1                   
Carpet Fibres 96          A*
Wallpaper                    O
Jacket                                                                                                     
Bathrobe
Car
Nightdress                    A                                       AK-1**

Bold  = Indicative results but not conclusive insofar as results did not meet the labs criteria for a definitive
* = Performed or repeated by Dr Lincoln
** = No photograpic evidence but on lab worksheet
Photographs show results other than for ABO groupings   

ABO = Blood Group System (Antigens)

PGM = Phosphoglucomutase (Enzyme) Breaks down quickly outside the body hence blood in silencer was unable to produce a reading

EAP = Erythrocyte Acid Phosphatase (Enzyme)

AK = Adenylate Kinase (Enzyme)

HP = Haptoglobin (Protein)

[Holly Goodhead]

As per the above the inside of the silencer was the only exhibit capable of producing all four results and the only exhibit capable of a result for the enzyme Erythrocyte Acid Phosphatase (EAP) and the protein Haptoglobin (HP).   &%+((£

[Angelo222]

Sadly I think it might be with regards to the flake.  I say sadly because if I am right regarding my hypothesis and the flake then surely it is something Paul Terzeon and Geoffrey Rivling QC should have picked up on pre-trial?  My understanding is that the blood flake found in the silencer matching SC's blood serology which the prosecution claim was there as result of draw-back underpins JB's conviction.  This is certainly the view of JB's defence:

"The possibility that the blood grouping result achieved by the prosecution which indicated that Sheila Caffell's blood was in the silencer, was potentially the best point the Crowns had at trial and consequently was examined closely"

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=569.0;attach=1865

If tests prove my hypothesis correct then it must be the silencer was deliberately contaminated?  If other aspects of the prosecution case against JB were strong then why would there be a need to fabricate evidence?

I don't believe it is necessary to take apart every aspect of the prosecutions case for a conviction to be quashed.  My understanding is that some new evidence is required that had jurors known about at trial might have altered their verdicts.  No one knows what weight jurors gave to the various aspects of the prosecutions case.  We only know taken as a whole 10 of the 12 jurors found JB guilty beyond reasonable doubt.

It would need to be exceptionally strong evidence to overturn a conviction for five murders.  Somehow I don't see that happening given all the circumstantial evidence against him and Julie Mugford's very specific testimony.

[Angelo222]

For those reading this thread that might be assisting JB I just wish to add that I personally would not trust JB's defence at trial as far as I could throw them.  If they say they covered off the fuming chamber I would still recommend independent testing.  Geoffrey Rivlin QC (and possibly to a lesser extent Paul Terzeon) will not want their professional reputations in tatters.  I believe  they will do anything and I mean anything to protect their reputations.  No doubt hoping if anything comes to light they can get off on non-disclosure rather than their own complacency and incompetence. 

 

Didn't Bamber's defence team consider him a psychopath and guilty?  Frankly I fail to see what Sheila's blood or anyone elses for that matter being in the silencer can prove anything and particularly could possibly be of such significance of being capable of overturning this conviction.

[Holly Goodhead]

Didn't Bamber's defence team consider him a psychopath and guilty?  Frankly I fail to see what Sheila's blood or anyone elses for that matter being in the silencer can prove anything and particularly could possibly be of such significance of being capable of overturning this conviction.

Not as far as I'm aware.

SC's blood type in the silencer is by far the strongest aspect of the prosecution case against JB.  Many supporters fail to understand it.  Even Andrew Hunter in Crimes That Shook Britian wrongly asserted it was animal blood. 

It seems obvious to me from the judges summing up, jury's deliberations and questions to judge that it was an aspect of the case the jury placed a lot of weight on.  Since JB's conviction and post his late 80's appeal which was largely based on an unfair summing up, all further appeals and CCRC applications have attempted to discredit the blood/silencer evidence:

- Cicra 1993 David Martin-Sperry, Isabelle Gillard, and Ewen Smith:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=961

- 2002 Michael Turner QC:

DNA evidence showing June's DNA was in the silencer, SC's might have been and DNA evidence of an unidentified male.  Since contamination could not be ruled out all this is meaningless and the case should never have been referred to CoA in first place.

- 2012 Simon McKay

Testing in an attempt to show it was the barrel end of the rifle that caused the burn marks to NB's back and the dirt ring/abrasion collar of SC's gunshot wounds. 

- NGB

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,570.msg11489.html#msg11489

(NGB I wonder if the tape over the end of the silencer was an attempt to show the evidential value of the 'flake' had been preserved when it entered the fuming chamber?  Unlikely to have bothered since it had already been examined by the lab and blood on the outside of the silencer removed.  Note DI Cook's comments in CAL's book - see post # 7  )

I am very much convinced that simple testing by way of blood introduced into a number of silencers replicating the flake and following the 'chain of custody' attached to the silencer used at JB's trial will show the blood flake would not be capable of yielding the blood results the prosecution claim.  Meaning the blood/silencer was fabricated.  As far as I am aware no testing in this regard has taken place. 

Unless the blood/silencer evidence can be overcome JB's chances of having his conviction quashed are virtually zero.

[scipio_usmc]

That is why I used plural for "samples" and "silencers" in my post above.

The flake was separated out for five tests:

ABO = Blood Group System (Antigens)

PGM = Phosphoglucomutase (Enzyme) Breaks down quickly outside the body hence blood in silencer was unable to produce a reading

EAP = Erythrocyte Acid Phosphatase (Enzyme)

AK = Adenylate Kinase (Enzyme)

HP = Haptoglobin (Protein)

Therefore we kinda get four shots per sample ie if one of the tests for the antigens, enzymes and protein fails across all samples to provide a result its game over for the flake that underpins JB's conviction.  Eg if say for example Haptoglobin fails on every occasion to provide a result its game over for the flake that underpins JB's conviction.

I requested from you some documentary evidence, links etc in a previous post to support your assertions regarding cyanoacrylate fuming and blood serology testing but so far nothing has been forthcoming.

Why would investigators/forensic scientists even consider putting blood evidence in the cyanoacrylate fuming chamber? 

Why do you think DI Cook arranged for the visible blood on the outside of the rifle and silencer to be tested before submitting to the cyanoacrylate fuming chamber?  Or do you think this is just the way it happened ie accident, convenience etc rather than design?

Oh and btw once the test samples leave the cyanoacrylate fuming chamber they will not be tested for 28 days to mirror the time between the silencer entering the fuming chamber (15th Aug) and John Hayward testing the flake (12th Sep).  In fact the blood samples will be deposited in the silencers and left for 8 days before entering the cyacoacrylate fuming chamber to again mirror the time from the prosecutions claim of draw-back (7th Aug) to the time the silencer entered cyanoacrylate fuming chamber (15th Aug).  The silencer was of course exposed to many more potentially harmful environments and opinion will be sought as to whether these could be quantified and factored in eg heat from rifle/silencer.  Current thinking is that the size of the flake alone would not be capable of yielding results never mind anything else.

I remain cautiously optimistic.

Such tests offer no legal value whatsoever.

To have legal significance they need to do such a large number of the same test over and over again that they would be able to establish results can never be obtained.  Only a huge number of tests could establish results can never be obtained and that the results were thus doctored by the lab.

Obviously if they get results then it is game over.  But even if they fail to get results that would not establish it is impossible to ever get results.  Unless they are prepared to go the full distance of doing a huge number of tests this is pretty much a waste of time.  How many tests would be required in order to prove scientifically that it is impossible?  Only scientists could assess that and it will be a guess on their part and thus speculation which other experts can disagree with.   

Your optimism is driven by your agenda not by any realistic chance of success. 

I never let my agenda stand in the way of facing reality because all false hope does is set up a future disappointment.     

[scipio_usmc]

If you want to shell out the money you can read a study that found blood typing can still successfully be done after superglue fuming:

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00085030.1988.10756959

That's not their first testing, they did testing years prior on superglue fuming and lasers while this 1988 study included both it also included other fingerprint methods.

This is from 1984 and referenced some of their earlier work:

[Myster]

Thirty-one quid for an article shouldn't be any problem for Miss Moneybags, especially if she intends throwing hundreds down an empty wishing-well for new tests.

[scipio_usmc]

Thirty-one quid for an article shouldn't be any problem for Miss Moneybags, especially if she intends throwing hundreds down an empty wishing-well for new tests.

It would be a waste of money since the study found results can be obtained. It doesn't matter that they found in some instances results were fuzzy they needed to find results can never ever be obtained in order for Holly to argue the results were impossible and thus the blood had to be planted after it was superglue fumed.

This is from 1988 and discusses several studies including a 1983 FBI study often cited in books for the proposition that superglue fuming doesn't inhibit bloodtyping:

[Holly Goodhead]

It would be a waste of money since the study found results can be obtained. It doesn't matter that they found in some instances results were fuzzy they needed to find results can never ever be obtained in order for Holly to argue the results were impossible and thus the blood had to be planted after it was superglue fumed.

This is from 1988 and discusses several studies including a 1983 FBI study often cited in books for the proposition that superglue fuming doesn't inhibit bloodtyping:

Well done for finding some info Scipio   

However I'm not sure how you've interpreted the above as supporting your argument that cyanoacrylate fuming does not adversely affect blood serology tests?  The studies are contradictory with one of the studies by Kimes and Principe showing EAP (starch), EAP (Group 11), AK2-1 and AK-1 were all adversely affected.  The article concludes:

"Cyanoacrylate ester development of fingerprints by two methods affected the stain the same.  The only visible difference was the production of a white haze over the stained and unstained portions of the knives by the commercial pad method.  Luminol and ninhydrin was destructive to enzyme testing but the for most part did not affect the other tests.  Black powder did not affect any of the other tests.  These results strongly suggest that before any fingerprint development is undertaken, blood samples should be collected for serological examination except when black powder method is used.  Stain maltreatment by fingerprint agents is readily observable.  The analyst is therefore alerted to this by anomalies in elecrophoretic genetic typing tests.  The main consequence of a specimen contact with a fingerprint agent is the apparent loss of typability but certainly not typing error.

[Holly Goodhead]

The studies obviously use certain parameters.  Change the parameters and the results might change.  In JB's case the parameters should be known:

- The length of time the silencer and flake (if such a flake ever existed as a result of draw-back) were kept at ambient temp from 7th Aug until entering the chamber on 15th Aug is known.

- A record should hopefully exist somewhere detailing exactly how the fuming chamber was set up in terms of humidity and processing time.

- The length of time the silencer and flake (if such a flake ever existed as a result of draw-back) were kept at ambient temp from leaving the fuming chamber on 15th Aug until analysed at the lab is known (12th Sep or was it 13th Sep?)

Enquiries have already been made with a principal scientist at one of the UK's leading forensic firms.  She has over 20 years experience involving all body fluids.  She has provided expert opinion on many cases and given testimony in cases of murder.

[Holly Goodhead]

I think there are many aspects of the blood evidence that have been overlooked.

Scipio what do you think of the table in post #18 ie why was the blood flake that was supposedly found in the silencer the only exhibit capable of four results? (1 of the 4 results didn't reach the labs internal standards for a definitive result according to Dr Lincoln?)

Why are the blood results overall poor?

It would be interesting to have the silencer forensically analysed for superglue residues.  This might help to resolve claims from various quarters that more than one silencer existed?