Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake

[scipio_usmc]

Well done for finding some info Scipio   

However I'm not sure how you've interpreted the above as supporting your argument that cyanoacrylate fuming does not adversely affect blood serology tests?  The studies are contradictory with one of the studies by Kimes and Principe showing EAP (starch), EAP (Group 11), AK2-1 and AK-1 were all adversely affected.  The article concludes:

"Cyanoacrylate ester development of fingerprints by two methods affected the stain the same.  The only visible difference was the production of a white haze over the stained and unstained portions of the knives by the commercial pad method.  Luminol and ninhydrin was destructive to enzyme testing but the for most part did not affect the other tests.  Black powder did not affect any of the other tests.  These results strongly suggest that before any fingerprint development is undertaken, blood samples should be collected for serological examination except when black powder method is used.  Stain maltreatment by fingerprint agents is readily observable.  The analyst is therefore alerted to this by anomalies in elecrophoretic genetic typing tests.  The main consequence of a specimen contact with a fingerprint agent is the apparent loss of typability but certainly not typing error.

The adverse effects to AK were double banding which was only able to be observed when the plates were overdeveloped. This did not inhibit their ability to detect and use the AK findings. 

You can try spinning this all you like but the bottom line is that they found at most that in some instances it inhibited them but for the most part it had no impact. So you are stuck at what I said from the outset.  It can in some instances cause issues but does not HAVE TO cause any issues and doesn't always prevent results from successfully being obtained.  You need to demonstrate results can never ever be obtained after super glue fuming in order to argue that blood had to have been planted after the super glue fuming because if it was there at the time it would for sure have been damaged and no results would have been obtainable.  There is no hope of proving that blood typing can never successfully be done after super glue fuming, studies and real life testing have already proven it is possible. These tests are thus a complete waste of time and money.

If this were still the trial stage you could look for testing to try to use at the trial itself to try to confuse the jury but we are not at the trial stage we are at the appellate level. At this level the only way to get the verdict nullified would be to prove the results were impossible to achieve and thus the blood had to be planted after the superglue fuming. If this were actually he case the defense would have found experts at the time who would have indicated results can't be obtained after superglue fuming.  Lincoln would have identified the problem.  But studies showed that it did not prevent successful bloodtyping. There is no new science not available at the time of the trial.  The defense could have done testing at the time of the trial if desired. One of the requirements is that testing has to have been unavailable at the time of the trial because of the state of science not simply the defense was too cheap or lazy to do testing at that time.

Scenario:

Defense claims they did testing of 3 samples and they were unable to get results.  Would this fit new testing that was unavailable for them to do at the time?  No, using due diligence they could have done such tests if they wanted to so this doesn't fit the new requirement.

Would this prove from a scientific standpoint that results are never obtainable and that the blood tested in 1985 must have been planted after the superglue fuming?  No at most it simply establishes that they were unable to get results and that results can be inhibited it would not be able to establish results will always be inhibited and never be obtainable.  The government would cite the studies showing results were obtainable and the court would hold that even if they ignored the new requirement and gave Bamber great latitude his evidence fails to establish the blood evidence is untrustworthy.

It would be a complete waste of time and money to even bother given the testing has no ability to prove what needs to be proven in order for a court to vacate the conviction.  That is is the sort of thing Innocence Project lawyers have to evaluate in order to decide who to aid since they don't have limitless resources.   

[Holly Goodhead]

The adverse effects to AK were double banding which was only able to be observed when the plates were overdeveloped. This did not inhibit their ability to detect and use the AK findings.

You can try spinning this all you like but the bottom line is that they found at most that in some instances it inhibited them but for the most part it had no impact. So you are stuck at what I said from the outset.  It can in some instances cause issues but does not HAVE TO cause any issues and doesn't always prevent results from successfully being obtained.  You need to demonstrate results can never ever be obtained after super glue fuming in order to argue that blood had to have been planted after the super glue fuming because if it was there at the time it would for sure have been damaged and no results would have been obtainable.  There is no hope of proving that blood typing can never successfully be done after super glue fuming, studies and real life testing have already proven it is possible. These tests are thus a complete waste of time and money.

If this were still the trial stage you could look for testing to try to use at the trial itself to try to confuse the jury but we are not at the trial stage we are at the appellate level. At this level the only way to get the verdict nullified would be to prove the results were impossible to achieve and thus the blood had to be planted after the superglue fuming. If this were actually he case the defense would have found experts at the time who would have indicated results can't be obtained after superglue fuming.  Lincoln would have identified the problem.  But studies showed that it did not prevent successful bloodtyping. There is no new science not available at the time of the trial.  The defense could have done testing at the time of the trial if desired. One of the requirements is that testing has to have been unavailable at the time of the trial because of the state of science not simply the defense was too cheap or lazy to do testing at that time.

Scenario:

Defense claims they did testing of 3 samples and they were unable to get results.  Would this fit new testing that was unavailable for them to do at the time?  No, using due diligence they could have done such tests if they wanted to so this doesn't fit the new requirement.

Would this prove from a scientific standpoint that results are never obtainable and that the blood tested in 1985 must have been planted after the superglue fuming?  No at most it simply establishes that they were unable to get results and that results can be inhibited it would not be able to establish results will always be inhibited and never be obtainable.  The government would cite the studies showing results were obtainable and the court would hold that even if they ignored the new requirement and gave Bamber great latitude his evidence fails to establish the blood evidence is untrustworthy.

It would be a complete waste of time and money to even bother given the testing has no ability to prove what needs to be proven in order for a court to vacate the conviction.  That is is the sort of thing Innocence Project lawyers have to evaluate in order to decide who to aid since they don't have limitless resources.

Correct but it is actually highly significant.  As far as I am aware the method used by the FSS at Huntingdon to test the enzymes and proteins was based on Gel Electrophoresis?

Furthermore in addition to the "significant double banding", which is highly significant if you understand how Gel Electrophoresis works, cyanoacrylate ester also adversely affected ESD (group 1), EAP (starch), EAP (group11) and G6PD.  The relevant enzyme in JB's case is EAP although I do not know whether starch, group 11 or some other subset?

From the bottom of page 2 of your image above in post #26

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7083.msg314191#msg314191

"The results of the treatment of samples with chemical agents, where an effect was observed, was the weakening or destruction of the entire band pattern.  A result was never observed where the loss or gain of bands could be interpreted or confused with another blood type.  Normal bands for ESD (group1), EAP (starch), EAP (group11) and G6PD were all weak to a point where interpretation of the plate became difficult if not impossible in cyanoacrylate ester development.  Even though this technique was not as destructive as the other two methods, enough of the enzymes were affected to significantly exclude many of the routine enzymatic examinations used by forensic laboratories".

If you check out how Gel Electrophoresis works you will see it produces photographic evidence of the results.  It's unlikely Dr Lincoln was on the look out for fabrication of evidence.  It seems to me he was there to check on methods, competency and liaise between the lab and JB's defence. 

I still maintain testing will either show the cyanoacrylate fuming process and overall length of time the silencer was kept at ambient temperature had no adverse affect on the flakes ability to produce results or it will show the flakes ability was adversely affected.  If the latter then it strongly suggests the flake/results were fabricated.

I'm sure a UK based principal scientist with some 20 years experience at one of the UK's leading forensic science firms is more than capable of setting up tests that meet criteria for use in court.

[scipio_usmc]

Correct but it is actually highly significant.  As far as I am aware the method used by the FSS at Huntingdon to test the enzymes and proteins was based on Gel Electrophoresis?

Furthermore in addition to the "significant double banding", which is highly significant if you understand how Gel Electrophoresis works, cyanoacrylate ester also adversely affected ESD (group 1), EAP (starch), EAP (group11) and G6PD.  The relevant enzyme in JB's case is EAP although I do not know whether starch, group 11 or some other subset?

From the bottom of page 2 of your image above in post #26

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7083.msg314191#msg314191

"The results of the treatment of samples with chemical agents, where an effect was observed, was the weakening or destruction of the entire band pattern.  A result was never observed where the loss or gain of bands could be interpreted or confused with another blood type.  Normal bands for ESD (group1), EAP (starch), EAP (group11) and G6PD were all weak to a point where interpretation of the plate became difficult if not impossible in cyanoacrylate ester development.  Even though this technique was not as destructive as the other two methods, enough of the enzymes were affected to significantly exclude many of the routine enzymatic examinations used by forensic laboratories".

If you check out how Gel Electrophoresis works you will see it produces photographic evidence of the results.  It's unlikely Dr Lincoln was on the look out for fabrication of evidence.  It seems to me he was there to check on methods, competency and liaise between the lab and JB's defence. 

I still maintain testing will either show the cyanoacrylate fuming process and overall length of time the silencer was kept at ambient temperature had no adverse affect on the flakes ability to produce results or it will show the flakes ability was adversely affected.  If the latter then it strongly suggests the flake/results were fabricated.

I'm sure a UK based principal scientist with some 20 years experience at one of the UK's leading forensic science firms is more than capable of setting up tests that meet criteria for use in court.

Apparently you need someone to interpret for you:

"ABO typing was not affected"

Translation: Superglue fuming did not in any way inhibit successfully typing ABO systems.  This is what what was used in the Bamber case to assess blood type.  The blood in the moderator was determined to be group A blood.  June and Sheila both had Group A blood and shared the same attributes except Sheila had AK1 while June had AK2-1 thus the AK enzyme test was the one which would reveal whether it was June or Sheila's blood.


"The results of the treatment of samples with chemical agents, where an effect was observed, was the weakening or destruction of the entire band pattern.  A result was never observed where the loss or gain of bands could be interpreted or confused with another blood type."

Translation: In those instances where there was a problem the result was either a weak result or no result obtained.  There was never an instance where the result could be confused and misinterpreted as a different blood type. This eliminates any ability to argue superglue fuming caused them to mistake 1 enzyme type for another enzyme type.

"Normal bands for ESD (group1), EAP (starch), EAP (group11) and G6PD were all weak to a point where interpretation of the plate became difficult if not impossible in cyanoacrylate ester development.  Even though this technique was not as destructive as the other two methods, enough of the enzymes were affected to significantly exclude many of the routine enzymatic examinations used by forensic laboratories".

Translation: Superglue fuming weakens ESD, EAP and G6pd thus making it more difficult to get a result and in many instances making it impossible to get a result.  Though it is still possible to successfully get a result it is more difficult and in many cases a result will not be obtainable.  So it is impossible?  NO! If you desire to test these particular enzymes is it better to do it before superglue fuming?  Yes, because there is the potential to damage them to such an extent that no result will be obtained. So does this prove it is impossible to get am EAP result after superglue fuming?  No it expressly states they still in some instances were able to get results.  June and Sheila had the same EAP so this test was worthless anyway in assessing whether it was June or Sheila's blood. A successful EAP result was obtained though from the blood in the moderator just like it was successfully obtained in some of the FBI tests. You always want to conflate can damage with will though can is very different from always will.

What about the AK enzyme?  Nothing you quoted discussed it which is funny because that it the enzyme that was dispositive in this case. The source stated the only issue was that double banding was observed when the plates were intentionally overdeveloped. So if one intentionally overdevelops the plates they have to be aware double banding will occur and take such into account when making their assessments. Does this suggest that the AK enzymes are never able to be detected after superglue fuming?  No they were able to be detected successfully. The AK1 enzyme was detected and this was associated with Sheila not June. Whether they overdeveloped the plates is something one could look at to try to see if they did so and were aware of the risks.  That is the only avenue of attack that could be investigated.  Since they said that extra bands were unable to result in misinterpreting the results as a different enzyme type that drastically limits the effects the usefullness of such attack though.

You can live in your own fantasyland all you like.  The reality is that testing has been successfully done after superglue fuming and there is no way for limited testing to have the ability to prove it is impossible to ever get results after superglue fuming.  Jeremy advocates need to prove it is never ever possible and limited testing is incapable of establishing that.  Since prior testing revealed results were successfully achieved and there is really nothing that could come from this supposed new testing I'm not going to give this a second thought because in a legal sense it has no potential to go anywhere.

[david1819]

Apparently you need someone to interpret for you:

"ABO typing was not affected"

Translation: Superglue fuming did not in any way inhibit successfully typing ABO systems.  This is what what was used in the Bamber case to assess blood type.  The blood in the moderator was determined to be group A blood.  June and Sheila both had Group A blood and shared the same attributes except Sheila had AK1 while June had AK2-1 thus the AK enzyme test was the one which would reveal whether it was June or Sheila's blood.


"The results of the treatment of samples with chemical agents, where an effect was observed, was the weakening or destruction of the entire band pattern.  A result was never observed where the loss or gain of bands could be interpreted or confused with another blood type."

Translation: In those instances where there was a problem the result was either a weak result or no result obtained.  There was never an instance where the result could be confused and misinterpreted as a different blood type. This eliminates any ability to argue superglue fuming caused them to mistake 1 enzyme type for another enzyme type.

"Normal bands for ESD (group1), EAP (starch), EAP (group11) and G6PD were all weak to a point where interpretation of the plate became difficult if not impossible in cyanoacrylate ester development.  Even though this technique was not as destructive as the other two methods, enough of the enzymes were affected to significantly exclude many of the routine enzymatic examinations used by forensic laboratories".

Translation: Superglue fuming weakens ESD, EAP and G6pd thus making it more difficult to get a result and in many instances making it impossible to get a result.  Though it is still possible to successfully get a result it is more difficult and in many cases a result will not be obtainable.  So it is impossible?  NO! If you desire to test these particular enzymes is it better to do it before superglue fuming?  Yes, because there is the potential to damage them to such an extent that no result will be obtained. So does this prove it is impossible to get am EAP result after superglue fuming?  No it expressly states they still in some instances were able to get results.  June and Sheila had the same EAP so this test was worthless anyway in assessing whether it was June or Sheila's blood. A successful EAP result was obtained though from the blood in the moderator just like it was successfully obtained in some of the FBI tests. You always want to conflate can damage with will though can is very different from always will.

What about the AK enzyme?  Nothing you quoted discussed it which is funny because that it the enzyme that was dispositive in this case. The source stated the only issue was that double banding was observed when the plates were intentionally overdeveloped. So if one intentionally overdevelops the plates they have to be aware double banding will occur and take such into account when making their assessments. Does this suggest that the AK enzymes are never able to be detected after superglue fuming?  No they were able to be detected successfully. The AK1 enzyme was detected and this was associated with Sheila not June. Whether they overdeveloped the plates is something one could look at to try to see if they did so and were aware of the risks.  That is the only avenue of attack that could be investigated.  Since they said that extra bands were unable to result in misinterpreting the results as a different enzyme type that drastically limits the effects the usefullness of such attack though.

You can live in your own fantasyland all you like.  The reality is that testing has been successfully done after superglue fuming and there is no way for limited testing to have the ability to prove it is impossible to ever get results after superglue fuming.  Jeremy advocates need to prove it is never ever possible and limited testing is incapable of establishing that.  Since prior testing revealed results were successfully achieved and there is really nothing that could come from this supposed new testing I'm not going to give this a second thought because in a legal sense it has no potential to go anywhere.

I am thinking about paying a visit to the Essex Police Museum, Maybe they could give me some details about their Superglue fuming facilities and methods that were used at the time. I also want to know what happened to the Sound Moderator and Rifle. If I do go anything in particular you want me to ask that you think might be helpful to us?

[Myster]

I am thinking about paying a visit to the Essex Police Museum, Maybe they could give me some details about their Superglue fuming facilities and methods that were used at the time. I also want to know what happened to the Sound Moderator and Rifle. If I do go anything in particular you want me to ask that you think might be helpful to us?

You'd be better off emailing Becky Wash, their lovely curator, about the above...

http://www.essex.police.uk/museum/contact-us/

... although you might then be requested to address your questions through the appropriate channels, and await the standard response that JB and the CT always receive...

 “Jeremy Bamber's conviction has been the subject of several appeals and reviews by the Criminal Cases Review Commission and there has never been anything to suggest that he was wrongly convicted.”

[Holly Goodhead]

Apparently you need someone to interpret for you:

"ABO typing was not affected"

Translation: Superglue fuming did not in any way inhibit successfully typing ABO systems.  This is what what was used in the Bamber case to assess blood type.  The blood in the moderator was determined to be group A blood.  June and Sheila both had Group A blood and shared the same attributes except Sheila had AK1 while June had AK2-1 thus the AK enzyme test was the one which would reveal whether it was June or Sheila's blood.


"The results of the treatment of samples with chemical agents, where an effect was observed, was the weakening or destruction of the entire band pattern.  A result was never observed where the loss or gain of bands could be interpreted or confused with another blood type."

Translation: In those instances where there was a problem the result was either a weak result or no result obtained.  There was never an instance where the result could be confused and misinterpreted as a different blood type. This eliminates any ability to argue superglue fuming caused them to mistake 1 enzyme type for another enzyme type.

"Normal bands for ESD (group1), EAP (starch), EAP (group11) and G6PD were all weak to a point where interpretation of the plate became difficult if not impossible in cyanoacrylate ester development.  Even though this technique was not as destructive as the other two methods, enough of the enzymes were affected to significantly exclude many of the routine enzymatic examinations used by forensic laboratories".

Translation: Superglue fuming weakens ESD, EAP and G6pd thus making it more difficult to get a result and in many instances making it impossible to get a result.  Though it is still possible to successfully get a result it is more difficult and in many cases a result will not be obtainable.  So it is impossible?  NO! If you desire to test these particular enzymes is it better to do it before superglue fuming?  Yes, because there is the potential to damage them to such an extent that no result will be obtained. So does this prove it is impossible to get am EAP result after superglue fuming?  No it expressly states they still in some instances were able to get results.  June and Sheila had the same EAP so this test was worthless anyway in assessing whether it was June or Sheila's blood. A successful EAP result was obtained though from the blood in the moderator just like it was successfully obtained in some of the FBI tests. You always want to conflate can damage with will though can is very different from always will.

What about the AK enzyme?  Nothing you quoted discussed it which is funny because that it the enzyme that was dispositive in this case. The source stated the only issue was that double banding was observed when the plates were intentionally overdeveloped. So if one intentionally overdevelops the plates they have to be aware double banding will occur and take such into account when making their assessments. Does this suggest that the AK enzymes are never able to be detected after superglue fuming?  No they were able to be detected successfully. The AK1 enzyme was detected and this was associated with Sheila not June. Whether they overdeveloped the plates is something one could look at to try to see if they did so and were aware of the risks.  That is the only avenue of attack that could be investigated.  Since they said that extra bands were unable to result in misinterpreting the results as a different enzyme type that drastically limits the effects the usefullness of such attack though.

You can live in your own fantasyland all you like.  The reality is that testing has been successfully done after superglue fuming and there is no way for limited testing to have the ability to prove it is impossible to ever get results after superglue fuming.  Jeremy advocates need to prove it is never ever possible and limited testing is incapable of establishing that.  Since prior testing revealed results were successfully achieved and there is really nothing that could come from this supposed new testing I'm not going to give this a second thought because in a legal sense it has no potential to go anywhere.

The above translations are all yours Scipio and it obvious that you have absolutely no idea whatsoever about blood serology and/or the testing of it.  Anyone reading the information you provided will see that the tests carried out using cyanoacrylate fuming had an adverse affect on the EAP and AK enzymes.  Other test results elsewhere show this is not the case so it is all pretty meaningless.  In order to demonstrate the flake of blood, or rather its constituent parts, supposedly found in the silencer were adversely affected by the fuming process will obviously require personalised testing.  If you want to dismiss this out of hand then go ahead I will not be wasting time going round in circles with you when it is plainly obvious to most, including scientists, that without personalised testing it is a complete unknown. 

I never claimed the ABO groupings were affected in the tests carried out in the information you provided.  The  ABO groupings (antigens) are completely unconnected to the enzyme Adenylate Kinase (AK).  The information you provided showed the EAP and AK enzymes were adversely affected by the fuming process.

                        ABO                    PGM                    EAP                     AK                    Hp

Nevill Bamber           O                        PGM1+                EAP BA               AK1                   Hp2-1
June Bamber            A                         PGM1+                EAP BA               AK2-1                Hp2-1
Daniel Caffell            O                        PGM2+1+            EAP B                 AK1                   Hp2
Nicholas Caffell         O                        PGM2+1+           EAP B                 AK1                    Hp2
Sheila Caffell            A                        PGM1+                EAP BA               AK1                    Hp2-1

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Blood In Silencer      A                        Nil                        EAP BA              AK1                    Hp2-1
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Robert Boutflour       A                         PGM1+                EAP BA              AK1                     Hp2-1

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ABO = Blood Group System (Antigens)

PGM = Phosphoglucomutase (Enzyme)

EAP = Erythrocyte Acid Phosphatase (Enzyme)

AK = Adenylate Kinase (Enzyme)

HP = Haptoglobin (Protein)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABO_blood_group_system

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adenylate_kinase

By the way just for the record I am not suggesting RB dobbed his own blood in the silencer (although it is a possibility) I simply slotted in his blood groupings to show that many members of the population share blood serology groupings - about 8% of unrelated white British people according to Dr Lincoln.

[Holly Goodhead]

I am thinking about paying a visit to the Essex Police Museum, Maybe they could give me some details about their Superglue fuming facilities and methods that were used at the time. I also want to know what happened to the Sound Moderator and Rifle. If I do go anything in particular you want me to ask that you think might be helpful to us?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7083.msg312991#msg312991

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7083.msg313459#msg313459

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/143865/fsb-chap3-sec10and11-development.pdf

[scipio_usmc]

I am thinking about paying a visit to the Essex Police Museum, Maybe they could give me some details about their Superglue fuming facilities and methods that were used at the time. I also want to know what happened to the Sound Moderator and Rifle. If I do go anything in particular you want me to ask that you think might be helpful to us?

More than a year ago the museum told me they never had the weapon or sound moderator even though some reporters/Jeremy advocates claimed they did.  The police still have them in their evidence storage. I don't think the museum will be able to help at all in any respect.  You need to ask the people who did the superglue fuming what variables they used if you want to know precisely what they did. The exact glue formulation, method of humidification, temperature, time etc (variables) are always up to the technicians and thus they are the ones who have to be consulted or records they made.  Such notes would not be in the museum.

 

[david1819]

More than a year ago the museum told me they never had the weapon or sound moderator even though some reporters/Jeremy advocates claimed they did.  The police still have them in their evidence storage. I don't think the museum will be able to help at all in any respect.  You need to ask the people who did the superglue fuming what variables they used if you want to know precisely what they did. The exact glue formulation, method of humidification, temperature, time etc (variables) are always up to the technicians and thus they are the ones who have to be consulted or records they made.  Such notes would not be in the museum.

The odd thing is I have a copy of a Fax correspondence from Special Branch to Chelmsford Essex Police instructing to have the Silencer and Rifle put on display in the Museum, and also saying they will have the pin removed from gun before they put it on display. The Fax is dated 1996, Maybe it was taken away for Jeremy's appeal in 2001 but not returned? Its possible the staff you spoke to did not work there at the time?

The Museum is located right underneath the Chelmsford police headquarters so its very possible they could be in the loop about the superglue fuming since its part of the same building

[Holly Goodhead]

I've added two columns at the end for positive reaction for blood (PRB) and human in origin (blood) (HIO).  The reason I've done this is to see whether these tests adversely affect later tests eg the ABO groupings etc.  I very much doubted it but I'm looking for reasons why the inside of the silencer/flake was able to produce significantly more results than the other exhibits.  It doesn't appear the inside of the silencer/flake was subjected to the PRB and HIO test.  Why?


                                    ABO   PGM            EAP         AK       Hp             PRB     HIO

Nevill Bamber                 O     PGM1+         EAP BA     AK1     Hp2-1
June Bamber                  A     PGM1+         EAP BA     AK2-1   Hp2-1
Daniel Caffell                  O     PGM2+1+    EAP B       AK1      Hp2
Nicholas Caffell              O     PGM2+1+    EAP B       AK1      Hp2
Sheila Caffell                  A     PGM1+         EAP BA     AK1      Hp2-1

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Blood In Silencer            A                         EAP BA     AK1     Hp2-1           
Blood Outside Sil.                                                                                 Y        Y
Rifle                             O                                                                      Y        Y
Carpet Sample 20         A*                                        AK2-1                            Y
Carpet Sample 21         A*                                        AK2-1                            Y                 
Socks                            A                                          AK2-1                            Y                   
Watch                                                                                                   Y        Y   
Carpet Fibres 95         O                                 AK2-1                            Y         
Carpet Fibres 96          A*                                                                    Y
Wallpaper                    O
Jacket                                                                                                    Y       Y
Bathrobe                                                                                               Y        Y
Car                                                                                                        Y       Y inconclusive
Nightdress                    A                                       AK-1**

Bold  = Indicative results but not conclusive insofar as results did not meet the labs criteria for a definitive
* = Performed or repeated by Dr Lincoln
** = No photograpic evidence but on lab worksheet
Photographs show results other than for ABO groupings   

ABO = Blood Group System (Antigens)

PGM = Phosphoglucomutase (Enzyme) Breaks down quickly outside the body hence blood in silencer was unable to produce a reading

EAP = Erythrocyte Acid Phosphatase (Enzyme)

AK = Adenylate Kinase (Enzyme)

HP = Haptoglobin (Protein)

PRB = Positive Reaction For Blood

HIO = Human In Origin (Blood)

[Holly Goodhead]

There must be some explanation why some exhibits are more capable than others of producing results.  It seems its probably quality and quantity?  Eg blood outside silencer was small quantity and blood on the car seat small quantity and the quality was probably poor from age, heat/sunlight through car window hence very limited results?

What I can't understand is that the rifle contained a number of smears and splashes.  The flake in the silencer measured a 1/4 of an inch and was separated into five parts for the group tests.  Therefore surely there was sufficient quantity on the rifle to match the quantity of the flake separated into five parts?

[Holly Goodhead]

Oh Scipio.... come play with me over my table 

[scipio_usmc]

The above translations are all yours Scipio and it obvious that you have absolutely no idea whatsoever about blood serology and/or the testing of it.  Anyone reading the information you provided will see that the tests carried out using cyanoacrylate fuming had an adverse affect on the EAP and AK enzymes.  Other test results elsewhere show this is not the case so it is all pretty meaningless.  In order to demonstrate the flake of blood, or rather its constituent parts, supposedly found in the silencer were adversely affected by the fuming process will obviously require personalised testing.  If you want to dismiss this out of hand then go ahead I will not be wasting time going round in circles with you when it is plainly obvious to most, including scientists, that without personalised testing it is a complete unknown. 

I never claimed the ABO groupings were affected in the tests carried out in the information you provided.  The  ABO groupings (antigens) are completely unconnected to the enzyme Adenylate Kinase (AK).  The information you provided showed the EAP and AK enzymes were adversely affected by the fuming process.

                        ABO                    PGM                    EAP                     AK                    Hp

Nevill Bamber           O                        PGM1+                EAP BA               AK1                   Hp2-1
June Bamber            A                         PGM1+                EAP BA               AK2-1                Hp2-1
Daniel Caffell            O                        PGM2+1+            EAP B                 AK1                   Hp2
Nicholas Caffell         O                        PGM2+1+           EAP B                 AK1                    Hp2
Sheila Caffell            A                        PGM1+                EAP BA               AK1                    Hp2-1

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Blood In Silencer      A                        Nil                        EAP BA              AK1                    Hp2-1
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Robert Boutflour       A                         PGM1+                EAP BA              AK1                     Hp2-1

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ABO = Blood Group System (Antigens)

PGM = Phosphoglucomutase (Enzyme)

EAP = Erythrocyte Acid Phosphatase (Enzyme)

AK = Adenylate Kinase (Enzyme)

HP = Haptoglobin (Protein)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABO_blood_group_system

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adenylate_kinase

By the way just for the record I am not suggesting RB dobbed his own blood in the silencer (although it is a possibility) I simply slotted in his blood groupings to show that many members of the population share blood serology groupings - about 8% of unrelated white British people according to Dr Lincoln.

The translations were because you keep trying to distort.

The only "damage" to the AK enzymes were if the plates were additionally overdeveloped, it caused double banding but that double banding still allowed them to assess whether it was AK1 or AK2-1 and did not provide a means to confuse the 2.

Your hope that it is impossible to ever get results when superglue fuming is done have already been proven wrong by past studies and the testing being done now has no chance in hell of proving it is impossible to ever get results.  Nothing short of proving it is impossible to get results after superglue fuming would have any legal significance.  So from a legal standpoint there is no reason to even pay attention to the testing supposedly being done.

[scipio_usmc]

The odd thing is I have a copy of a Fax correspondence from Special Branch to Chelmsford Essex Police instructing to have the Silencer and Rifle put on display in the Museum, and also saying they will have the pin removed from gun before they put it on display. The Fax is dated 1996, Maybe it was taken away for Jeremy's appeal in 2001 but not returned? Its possible the staff you spoke to did not work there at the time?

The Museum is located right underneath the Chelmsford police headquarters so its very possible they could be in the loop about the superglue fuming since its part of the same building

Maybe they never did the transfer upon learning that the Home Office still considered the appeal open. A document saying they planned to do something is different than one that confirms transport and receipt.

If the transfer did occur it was for a very short period of time because certainly after it was discovered the appeal was still active they would have obtained the items from the museum to put back in storage.  Since the museum says they don't have it now going there to hope to see it would obviously be futile. 

 

[scipio_usmc]

There must be some explanation why some exhibits are more capable than others of producing results.  It seems its probably quality and quantity?  Eg blood outside silencer was small quantity and blood on the car seat small quantity and the quality was probably poor from age, heat/sunlight through car window hence very limited results?

What I can't understand is that the rifle contained a number of smears and splashes.  The flake in the silencer measured a 1/4 of an inch and was separated into five parts for the group tests.  Therefore surely there was sufficient quantity on the rifle to match the quantity of the flake separated into five parts?

None of the smears dried into a single flake. It was blood stuck to the side of wood. It was small amounts because the spatter was small and the killer was still using the weapon thus some of the blood would have wiped off onto the killer. Blood that was undisturbed pooled inside the moderator forming into a flake. The whole flake was in 1 whole part.  Swabbing blood stuck to something with a swab to get a tiny amount results in less to test. The blood on the baffles that was swabbed was thus also insufficient to get results beyond knowing it was human.  Right inside the opening defense Lincoln found enough blood to tests and determine it was Sheila's, the blood on the baffles he detected was too little.  Part of the reason why he was not used was because he found such blood and would simply confirm the findings of the lab.