Author Topic: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake  (Read 50853 times)

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Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #120 on: March 23, 2016, 11:27:42 PM »
Wow this thread has gone so off topic!

Anyway go for it.  I need to master the art of splitting threads and moving posts so I'll have something to practice on.  Thereafter I will be 'encouraging' posters to stay on topic  ?{)(**
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Myster

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #121 on: March 24, 2016, 03:32:40 AM »
Wow this thread has gone so off topic!

Anyway go for it.  I need to master the art of splitting threads and moving posts so I'll have something to practice on.  Thereafter I will be 'encouraging' posters to stay on topic  ?{)(**

Yes, madam... but this is the province of those higher up in the food chain, and you still need to master the art of posting an actual video that works!
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #122 on: March 24, 2016, 12:57:40 PM »
Yes, madam... but this is the province of those higher up in the food chain, and you still need to master the art of posting an actual video that works!

Yes I've been side-tracked by THE FLAKE and need to clear my mind and focus!
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #123 on: March 24, 2016, 01:19:36 PM »
None of the smears dried into a single flake. It was blood stuck to the side of wood. It was small amounts because the spatter was small and the killer was still using the weapon thus some of the blood would have wiped off onto the killer. Blood that was undisturbed pooled inside the moderator forming into a flake. The whole flake was in 1 whole part.  Swabbing blood stuck to something with a swab to get a tiny amount results in less to test. The blood on the baffles that was swabbed was thus also insufficient to get results beyond knowing it was human.  Right inside the opening defense Lincoln found enough blood to tests and determine it was Sheila's, the blood on the baffles he detected was too little.  Part of the reason why he was not used was because he found such blood and would simply confirm the findings of the lab.

How would blood on the rifle wipe off onto the perp?  What evidence exists to suggest this happened?

I don't believe there was any blood right inside the opening as you claim?

John Hayward tested blood on the upper baffles which he described as "staining".  The results showed A for the antigens (ABO groupings) and EAP BA for enzyme Erythrocyte Acid Phosphatase (EAP).  And yet the rifle containing "splashes" and "smears" and the outside of the silencer containing "stains" were incapable of any test results beyond a positive reaction for blood and human in origin.  Plus the rifle and the outside of the silencer were tested about a month before the inside of the silencer.

Why didn't the lab test the blood they claim they found inside the silencer for a positive reaction for blood and determine whether or not it was human in origin as they did with the other exhibits?  Or is that a silly question?  8(0(*

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7083.msg315462#msg315462

The above is sounding horribly reminiscent of the Stefan Kizsko case:

In 1994 the surviving senior officer in charge of the original investigation, Detective Superintendent Dick Holland, and the retired forensic scientist who had worked on the case, Ronald Outteridge, were formally charged with "doing acts tending to pervert the course of justice" by allegedly suppressing evidence in Kiszko's favour, namely the results of scientific tests on semen taken from the victim's body and from the accused.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Lesley_Molseed

I'm so convinced the silencer/blood evidence was fabricated that I believe running the tests on a flake of blood the same size as the flake supposedly found in the silencer will show the evidence was fabricated.  Never mind the fuming chamber.  It simply doesn't make sense that the flake of blood in the silencer was able to produce blood test results where other exhibits failed.

Blood samples tested by way of conventional serological analysis require a good quality "large" sample about a quarter coin size (US currency) and on this basis alone the flake fails.  A quarter size coin is about four times larger than the flake found in the silencer.

Dr Lincoln, who JB's defence appointed pre-trial, was not a forensic scientist.  He was a senior lecturer in blood group serology at London hospital medical college.  When he visited the lab I doubt any sort of wrongdoing even crossed his mind.

Why Paul Terzeon and/or Geoffrey Rivlin did not accompany Dr Lincoln to ask probing and disturbing questions of John Hayward and Dr Lincoln eg why the flake was able to produce significantly more results than the other exhibits I don't know.  Perhaps more concerned with managing their time when time is money.  How many cases were they involved in that included 4 murders and a sucide or five murders where death was caused by firearms?   

To my mind the pair were hopeless and simply accepted what they were told without question.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2016, 01:22:39 PM by Holly Goodhead »
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Caroline

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #124 on: March 24, 2016, 03:44:32 PM »
How would blood on the rifle wipe off onto the perp?  What evidence exists to suggest this happened?

I don't believe there was any blood right inside the opening as you claim?

John Hayward tested blood on the upper baffles which he described as "staining".  The results showed A for the antigens (ABO groupings) and EAP BA for enzyme Erythrocyte Acid Phosphatase (EAP).  And yet the rifle containing "splashes" and "smears" and the outside of the silencer containing "stains" were incapable of any test results beyond a positive reaction for blood and human in origin.  Plus the rifle and the outside of the silencer were tested about a month before the inside of the silencer.

Why didn't the lab test the blood they claim they found inside the silencer for a positive reaction for blood and determine whether or not it was human in origin as they did with the other exhibits?  Or is that a silly question?  8(0(*

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7083.msg315462#msg315462

The above is sounding horribly reminiscent of the Stefan Kizsko case:

In 1994 the surviving senior officer in charge of the original investigation, Detective Superintendent Dick Holland, and the retired forensic scientist who had worked on the case, Ronald Outteridge, were formally charged with "doing acts tending to pervert the course of justice" by allegedly suppressing evidence in Kiszko's favour, namely the results of scientific tests on semen taken from the victim's body and from the accused.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Lesley_Molseed

I'm so convinced the silencer/blood evidence was fabricated that I believe running the tests on a flake of blood the same size as the flake supposedly found in the silencer will show the evidence was fabricated.  Never mind the fuming chamber.  It simply doesn't make sense that the flake of blood in the silencer was able to produce blood test results where other exhibits failed.

Blood samples tested by way of conventional serological analysis require a good quality "large" sample about a quarter coin size (US currency) and on this basis alone the flake fails.  A quarter size coin is about four times larger than the flake found in the silencer.

Dr Lincoln, who JB's defence appointed pre-trial, was not a forensic scientist.  He was a senior lecturer in blood group serology at London hospital medical college.  When he visited the lab I doubt any sort of wrongdoing even crossed his mind.

Why Paul Terzeon and/or Geoffrey Rivlin did not accompany Dr Lincoln to ask probing and disturbing questions of John Hayward and Dr Lincoln eg why the flake was able to produce significantly more results than the other exhibits I don't know.  Perhaps more concerned with managing their time when time is money.  How many cases were they involved in that included 4 murders and a sucide or five murders where death was caused by firearms?   

To my mind the pair were hopeless and simply accepted what they were told without question.

Why would John Hayward lie?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #125 on: March 24, 2016, 04:05:07 PM »
Why would John Hayward lie?

Did he lie?
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #126 on: March 24, 2016, 08:34:19 PM »
How would blood on the rifle wipe off onto the perp?  What evidence exists to suggest this happened?

I don't believe there was any blood right inside the opening as you claim?

Howard drew on her Aug 13 diagram that she removed apparent blood from inside the opening, noted she tested that material and it tested as human blood, the next day police were notified that she found human blood inside it, she noted such in her subsequent statements that she removed blood from inside as well as outside. In her trial testimony she said she found blood inside:

Q. Let us go to the moderator please.
A. Yes
Q. What did you examine
A. In addition to the areas I have described [in my earlier testimony] I found actually inside the bore, just inside the bore, some blood staining attached to the surface.

In addition to Howard finding blood inside the bore of the moderator so did Lincoln and he was able to determine it was group A blood.

If you don't want to believe there was blood inside the opening then it is because you don't want to believe it not because there is a lack of evidence establishing it.

John Hayward tested blood on the upper baffles which he described as "staining".  The results showed A for the antigens (ABO groupings) and EAP BA for enzyme Erythrocyte Acid Phosphatase (EAP).  And yet the rifle containing "splashes" and "smears" and the outside of the silencer containing "stains" were incapable of any test results beyond a positive reaction for blood and human in origin.  Plus the rifle and the outside of the silencer were tested about a month before the inside of the silencer.

Why didn't the lab test the blood they claim they found inside the silencer for a positive reaction for blood and determine whether or not it was human in origin as they did with the other exhibits?  Or is that a silly question?  8(0(*

They did test it.  Howard determined the blood she removed was human blood. They also determined the blood on the baffles was human blood of Group A but could not get any enzyme readings. The flake they got the type as well as adenylate kinase enzyme results.   Lincoln's tests confirmed the blood inside the opening was human blood and was even able to type it- Group A. He was able to confirm human blood was on the first 8 baffles but was unable to type such blood. 


http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7083.msg315462#msg315462

The above is sounding horribly reminiscent of the Stefan Kizsko case:

In 1994 the surviving senior officer in charge of the original investigation, Detective Superintendent Dick Holland, and the retired forensic scientist who had worked on the case, Ronald Outteridge, were formally charged with "doing acts tending to pervert the course of justice" by allegedly suppressing evidence in Kiszko's favour, namely the results of scientific tests on semen taken from the victim's body and from the accused.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Lesley_Molseed

You haven't pointed to anything remotely suggestive of anything that occurred there.

I'm so convinced the silencer/blood evidence was fabricated that I believe running the tests on a flake of blood the same size as the flake supposedly found in the silencer will show the evidence was fabricated.  Never mind the fuming chamber.  It simply doesn't make sense that the flake of blood in the silencer was able to produce blood test results where other exhibits failed.

Blood samples tested by way of conventional serological analysis require a good quality "large" sample about a quarter coin size (US currency) and on this basis alone the flake fails.  A quarter size coin is about four times larger than the flake found in the silencer.

Dr Lincoln, who JB's defence appointed pre-trial, was not a forensic scientist.  He was a senior lecturer in blood group serology at London hospital medical college.  When he visited the lab I doubt any sort of wrongdoing even crossed his mind.

Why Paul Terzeon and/or Geoffrey Rivlin did not accompany Dr Lincoln to ask probing and disturbing questions of John Hayward and Dr Lincoln eg why the flake was able to produce significantly more results than the other exhibits I don't know.  Perhaps more concerned with managing their time when time is money.  How many cases were they involved in that included 4 murders and a sucide or five murders where death was caused by firearms?   

To my mind the pair were hopeless and simply accepted what they were told without question.

You have convinced yourself blood was planted without a shred of evidence to actually establish it.  You also have convinced yourself that if the blood had been present from the murders it could not have survived to be found and tested by the lab and convinced yourself Jeremy's defense will be able to prove it is impossible for such blood to survive. You don't want to believe the evidence and to placate yourself have convinced yourself there will be a way to refute it. The reality is there is no evidence to suggest it was planted and there is no way to prove it short of someone confessing and establishing with credible evidence it happened.  At some point you have to decide whether to remain like Linus always waiting in the Pumpkin Patch and always coming up with some new thing to justify keeping your hope alive so that you can avoid facing a reality you find unpleasant.

“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Myster

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #127 on: March 24, 2016, 08:50:11 PM »
DB didn't plant any, that's for sure!
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline Caroline

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #128 on: March 24, 2016, 09:23:09 PM »
Did he lie?

Then what are you suggesting? You're saying the flake was too small and of poor quality to type, Hayward said he was able to do that, so why would he put himself on the line? He either was able to identify the blood type of the flake or he was lying?
« Last Edit: March 24, 2016, 09:56:29 PM by Caroline »

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #129 on: March 24, 2016, 10:44:31 PM »
How would blood on the rifle wipe off onto the perp?  What evidence exists to suggest this happened?

You steady a rifle by holding the stock against your body.  After the blood got on the rifle stock Nevill was shot and so were other victims. There is no way to do such and not smear the blood and get it on yourself in addition to smearing it.
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #130 on: March 25, 2016, 07:47:34 PM »
Then what are you suggesting? You're saying the flake was too small and of poor quality to type, Hayward said he was able to do that, so why would he put himself on the line? He either was able to identify the blood type of the flake or he was lying?

Did he?

Do you have an organisational chart for the lab?  I haven't seen one.  It appears John Hayward was the principal scientist for the biology dept?  Pre trial JH met with Dr Lincoln for the defence and went on the stand at trial.  If I referred to JH personally in a post it was as a figurehead.  As Dr Lincoln said JH might not have carried out any of the tests.  Do we know who carried out the tests on the flake?  Three parts as far as I can see:

- Cutting the flake in five for the five tests.
- Running the ABO test
- Running the enzyme and protein tests using gel electrophoresis 

See the following 'Records of results obtained by Home Office Laboratory':

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=935

Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #131 on: March 25, 2016, 09:28:00 PM »
Did he?

Do you have an organisational chart for the lab?  I haven't seen one.  It appears John Hayward was the principal scientist for the biology dept?  Pre trial JH met with Dr Lincoln for the defence and went on the stand at trial.  If I referred to JH personally in a post it was as a figurehead.  As Dr Lincoln said JH might not have carried out any of the tests.  Do we know who carried out the tests on the flake?  Three parts as far as I can see:

- Cutting the flake in five for the five tests.
- Running the ABO test
- Running the enzyme and protein tests using gel electrophoresis 

See the following 'Records of results obtained by Home Office Laboratory':

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=935

At the time of JB's trial John Hayward was in private practice.  Was this part of his game plan?  Or was he uncomfortable with what went on (if anything) at the lab over the WHF case or in general?  Or was he ousted? 

John Hayward passed away in 2011.  His son, David, now runs the firm Hayward Forensics:

http://www.haywardforensics.co.uk/

I contacted David in January re his firm carrying out some forensic work.  For obvious reasons I would have been wary but didn't have to cross that bridge!  I don't think I'm betraying any confidences in relaying our brief email converations as there's nothing confidential and/or sensitive. 

To David Hayward

Dear David

I am sure you will be familiar with the above case due to your late fathers involvement.  I have studied the case carefully over some 4 years and I am inclined to see JB as a victim of a miscarriage of justice.  As such I guess you would term me a 'supporter'.  I would like to discuss with you the possibility of your firm carrying out some forensic work on a commercial basis.   I have long connections with Cambridge and Huntingdon and as I noticed you are based in St Ives I thought why not.  I guess for various personal and professional reasons you will either welcome the opportunity of getting involved with the case or not want to touch it with a barge pole which I will quite understand.


From David Hayward

Dear Toni

Many thanks for your enquiry.  I have never had any professional involvement in this matter.

My father was always very clear that he did not believe that there had been a miscarriage of justice.  Should I undertake work in relation to this case, then any findings I produce could therefore be interpreted as not coming from a neutral standpoint. I would therefore respectively suggest that you look for assistance from forensic practitioners with no prior connection to the case.


I've not uploaded the original emails as I don't want my email address in the public domain.  Original emails sent to Myster to authenticate.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Myster

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #132 on: March 25, 2016, 09:54:43 PM »
We trust you Holly. I haven't received any mail yet, but I'll let you know tomorrow as I'm clocking off now.
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline Caroline

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #133 on: March 25, 2016, 10:08:34 PM »
Did he?

Do you have an organisational chart for the lab?  I haven't seen one.  It appears John Hayward was the principal scientist for the biology dept?  Pre trial JH met with Dr Lincoln for the defence and went on the stand at trial.  If I referred to JH personally in a post it was as a figurehead.  As Dr Lincoln said JH might not have carried out any of the tests.  Do we know who carried out the tests on the flake?  Three parts as far as I can see:

- Cutting the flake in five for the five tests.
- Running the ABO test
- Running the enzyme and protein tests using gel electrophoresis 

See the following 'Records of results obtained by Home Office Laboratory':

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=935

John Hayward must have carried out the tests because he was the one on the stand, had he not, then whoever did would have been in court to give evidence. In respect to the blood on the outside of the moderator, I believe it couldn't be grouped simply because there was insufficient available.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #134 on: March 26, 2016, 01:21:05 PM »
We trust you Holly. I haven't received any mail yet, but I'll let you know tomorrow as I'm clocking off now.

I had a problem with my email connection yesterday but they should now be in your inbox.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?