Author Topic: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake  (Read 50709 times)

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Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #165 on: March 28, 2016, 05:12:09 PM »
Only select tests could be done the same time on the same sample.  Some chose to do multiple tests at once while others thought it preferable to do single tests. If they would do multiple tests they still would need to break it up into 2-3 pieces depending on which tests since some could not be done together. They decided to do all individually not any together and as such broke it into 5 parts not 2-3. The default was doing it individually as they did.  A minority of scientists opted for battery testing which was a fad which started then faded.  No sources explain why the fad failed to take root and become the default so whether it was because of some problem/difficulty that emerged is unclear.

As I said previously conventional serological analysis of proteins and enzymes (AK, EAP, HP, PGM) uses the same procedure as DNA testing that is gel electrophoresis.  However unlike DNA evidence which aims to provide one complete profile, conventional serological analysis of blood analyses and compares certain enzymes and proteins so it seems to me that individual tests would need to be run.  But I still don't see the advantages of cutting the flake of blood to run the individual tests vs dissolving the whole flake and then drawing off sufficient liquid to run the individual tests?  Dr Lincoln for the defence was certainly under the impression the latter took place.  It was only at JB's CoA hearing in 2002 that it became apparent that the former took place.  I don't believe scientists just amble along using methods willy-nilly.  I want to know why the flake was cut.  Before any test are run I will be covering off all of this with the female scientist  8(>(( with a very fine toothcomb  ?>)()<
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #166 on: March 28, 2016, 05:19:44 PM »
As I said previously conventional serological analysis of proteins and enzymes (AK, EAP, HP, PGM) uses the same procedure as DNA testing that is gel electrophoresis.  However unlike DNA evidence which aims to provide one complete profile, conventional serological analysis of blood analyses and compares certain enzymes and proteins so it seems to me that individual tests would need to be run.  But I still don't see the advantages of cutting the flake of blood to run the individual tests vs dissolving the whole flake and then drawing off sufficient liquid to run the individual tests?  Dr Lincoln for the defence was certainly under the impression the latter took place.  It was only at JB's CoA hearing in 2002 that it became apparent that the former took place.  I don't believe scientists just amble along using methods willy-nilly.  I want to know why the flake was cut.  Before any test are run I will be covering off all of this with the female scientist  8(>(( with a very fine toothcomb  ?>)()<

There is no difference scientifically. It is a matter of taste. one person can feel it is easier to cut a flake into even portions while someone else can feel it is easier to decide a solution.  Neither has some significant advantage in terms of the results, they get to the same place ultimately. 
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #167 on: March 28, 2016, 05:36:17 PM »
There is no difference scientifically. It is a matter of taste. one person can feel it is easier to cut a flake into even portions while someone else can feel it is easier to decide a solution.  Neither has some significant advantage in terms of the results, they get to the same place ultimately.

According to the CoA hearing 2002 John Hayward should have taken steps to ensure the flake was dissolved whole or pulverized before testing.  Point 494:

vi) Whilst he accepted that the method of testing was the standard approach to blood grouping at the time, it was only applicable to "a run of the mill" case where it was known that each bloodstain was from a single individual. When there was a risk that it might be from more than one blood source, as here, Mr Hayward should have taken steps to ensure that the different group tests were carried out on the same material. This could have been achieved either by dissolving the whole flake and forming a single solution or by crushing the flake and pulverising it to ensure that all parts were completely mixed.

Also when the blood evidence is small ie a flake measuring a 1/4 of an inch it surely stands to reason that cutting will reduce the amount of blood for testing, even if only tiny fragments are lost on the implement used for cutting, whereas dissolving will capture all the blood?

Anyway I think I will wait to hear from an appropriately qualified person who practices in the 21st century  8((()*/
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #168 on: March 28, 2016, 07:34:53 PM »
According to the CoA hearing 2002 John Hayward should have taken steps to ensure the flake was dissolved whole or pulverized before testing.  Point 494:

vi) Whilst he accepted that the method of testing was the standard approach to blood grouping at the time, it was only applicable to "a run of the mill" case where it was known that each bloodstain was from a single individual. When there was a risk that it might be from more than one blood source, as here, Mr Hayward should have taken steps to ensure that the different group tests were carried out on the same material. This could have been achieved either by dissolving the whole flake and forming a single solution or by crushing the flake and pulverising it to ensure that all parts were completely mixed.

Also when the blood evidence is small ie a flake measuring a 1/4 of an inch it surely stands to reason that cutting will reduce the amount of blood for testing, even if only tiny fragments are lost on the implement used for cutting, whereas dissolving will capture all the blood?

Anyway I think I will wait to hear from an appropriately qualified person who practices in the 21st century  8((()*/

Wait for what?

Lincoln said because the blood was a single flake he felt this means it came from the same source.

Other experts said if there was blood of more than one person it would have intimately mixed and thus be detected. the only way for there to be an undetected mixture would be if blood failed to intimately mix and there was no way for that to happen with victims killed during the same episode.

Yet other experts said it would not be possible for the blood of any victim to get that far inside except Sheila because she was the only one who suffered a contact wound that would result in drawback.

This effectively rules out the possibility of a mix.

In addition to being ruled out scientifically most people including you reject that if Sheila had committed the crime that she would have gotten the moderator out, used it then put it away before killing herself.

Since you find such absurd why would you bother trying to find a scientific way to say it is possible?  The defense already tried that and failed so it is a waste of time anyway but especially when you say you don't buy it and attacked the defense for approaching it from that angle and said they should have accused someone of planting the blood.

Basically you just did the same thing as them. You have no evidence to establish the blood was planted so revert to the argument they made that maybe the blood was a mixture.
 
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #169 on: March 28, 2016, 07:36:17 PM »
You admit you have no evidence to establish it was fabricatedbut have decided it was because you have arbitrarily decided Jeremy is innocent and as such choose to discount the evidence though you had no basis to do so.

Yet! I haven't arbitrarily decided anything.  Some who believe JB guilty also believe the silencer/blood evidence was fabricated.

You want to go on a fishing expedition to see who you would have to accuse base don who signed what. That won't reveal who else was in the room watching/supervising etc so would be of limited utility anyway.

The notion the lab took some blood, tested it and made up that it found this blood in the moderator is absurd.

You seem oblivious to the fact wrongdoing, incompetence and miscarriage of justices happen all the time, in all walks of life and for a whole variety of reasons.

you keep ignoring the evidence I presented proving that Howard found blood inside the moderator.  Her 8/13/86 examination record details blood found inside the bore,  records prove police were notified 8/14/86 that blood was found inside the moderator, her subsequent statements state she found blood inside the bore and even her trial testimony stated such.

Moreover, Lincoln detected blood right inside the opening which he determined was group A and he also detected blood on the first 8 baffles.

Blood was definitely inside the moderator.  No one simply pretended they found blood inside.

If you want to allege planting you need to establish:

1) that someone planted blood inside the opening

2) that someone deposited blood on the first 8 baffles

3) that someone deposited the blood that formed into the flake

4) that someone removed blood that was inside the rifle and concealed its finding

Since Howard found the blood inside the opening on 8/13/85 you have to establish it was planted prior to this unless you want to accuse her of depositing the blood and later in the day removing it though she didn't have it in her possession for long because Cook took it back to HQ in order to subject it to fingerprinting. 

The flake and blood on the baffles quite clearly had to be present by the time the lab opened it up and tested it unless again you want to accuse a lab worker of depositing the blood, waiting for it to dry and then removing and testing it.  If they tested it shortly after depositing it though they would have had stronger results.

People who choose to believe the moderator evidence was fabricated do not believe this because there is any evidence to suggest it happened but rather simply have decided in their mind to not believe it and look for ways to try to justify/rationalize such.

There's no evidence Glynis Howard found any blood inside the silencer on 13th Aug.  You seem to want to refer to the "scattered fragments" of paint as blood.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1026.0;attach=2053

Do you have Glynis Howard's trial testimony? 

A WS drawn up by EP on behalf of Glynis Howard states blood was found inside the silencer but this is unsigned.  If it isn't signed by the witness it means diddly-squat. 

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=169.0;attach=305

With regard to Dr Lincoln I don't know what you mean by "right inside the opening"?  If you mean the bore that's visible from the outside no he didn't.  He found blood in the end piece that was only visible internally and the threaded end but all of this was during 1986:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=929

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=931

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=921

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=923 



Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Caroline

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #170 on: March 28, 2016, 08:40:05 PM »
In the old days the person ultimately overseeing everything who handled the actual results usually took the stand. The person who examined the results and assessed the results as opposed to the person who simply did the legwork but were unsure what the results of their work was.   

There have been efforts over the years to expand who can be questioned. A US Supreme Court ruling allows all minor people involved to be questioned at trial as part of the right to confront accusers. They drastically expanded the definition of accusers. I don't know if the UK has gone as far as them.

Hayward had helpers doing some of the work but he was overall in charge of them and the one who took the results and analyzed/interpreted them so would be the logical one to testify.

He was not involved at the point in time when Howard did her examination. She handled both testing and analysis of her findings.  As such she testified to the earlier blood testing.


Which is what I said.

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #171 on: March 28, 2016, 09:47:08 PM »
Yet! I haven't arbitrarily decided anything.  Some who believe JB guilty also believe the silencer/blood evidence was fabricated.

You seem oblivious to the fact wrongdoing, incompetence and miscarriage of justices happen all the time, in all walks of life and for a whole variety of reasons.

Saying MOJs happen all the time is greatly inflating the number.  In any event to suggest evidence was planted because it happened in other cases is simply arbitrary and not evaluating on the basis of evidence in this case.  The number who think he is guilty and yet that evidence was planted is small and their basis of belief is just as arbitrary and unsupported as your opinion. 

You have put the cart before the horse.  You decided it was planted and seek out evidence to support this view instead of following the evidence where it leads.  Only if evidence leads to the conclusion it was planted is the view supported.



There's no evidence Glynis Howard found any blood inside the silencer on 13th Aug.  You seem to want to refer to the "scattered fragments" of paint as blood.

I already listed the evidence. The document in question that notes scattered fragments has a line showing they were collected from inside the hole not on the outer surface and also indicated it is KM positive.  That alone should clue you in that it was from inside.  But if there is any doubt that is erased when you look at the fact that COLP said there was documented proof the lab notified police on 8/14/85 that blood was found inside the moderator.  Why would the lab lie to police and state such if Howard had not found any blood inside?  Furthermore Howard's statement says she removed blood from inside:



Then you have the fact that right inside the opening Lincoln removed blood and typed it as group A.

I don't make things up. I cited the facts.  If you want to claim someone planted it for her to find or that she planted it then removed it be my guest but denying she found any blood inside in order to avoid having to dela with it fails.


Do you have Glynis Howard's trial testimony?

Do you think I made the quote up? Luckily I saved some snips I posted on blue.

Not only did she discuss it in her testimony in chief but also was cross examined about it





I'm not Mike I don't make things up.

A WS drawn up by EP on behalf of Glynis Howard states blood was found inside the silencer but this is unsigned.  If it isn't signed by the witness it means diddly-squat.

You didn't pay attention to her COLP statement at all. They had signed originals from her, the only difference is the signed originals refer to the moderator as DB/1.  They re-typed it with the only change from her signed version being the new one referred to the moderator as DRB/1.  She said she would have signed the new one if they asked her to do so. The signed versions say blood was found inside and out.

With regard to Dr Lincoln I don't know what you mean by "right inside the opening"?  If you mean the bore that's visible from the outside no he didn't.  He found blood in the end piece that was only visible internally and the threaded end but all of this was during 1986

Lincoln removed the blood from inside the bore, that is what he called the end. He said he found it in the end that was threaded.  He meant the end piece after it was removed.

That is also where Howard removed the blood from. He said there was no blood visible to the naked eye but enough was present to be able to test it and it was group A. The fact this blood was there for him to remove in 1986 means there was actually blood there inside.

This shows you the tip (End) removed from the moderator.  The end screws into the tube.  In order to be able to be screwed in the tube the end had to be threaded. This is threading Lincoln refers to where he found the blood. He found it not in the outside threading of this piece but inside the bore. He called it a threaded end because that when you hold this end piece on its own you see threads.

The end piece is on the right end of the photo that is the knurled piece removed.

 

 

 
« Last Edit: March 28, 2016, 09:53:27 PM by scipio_usmc »
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #172 on: March 29, 2016, 12:41:06 PM »
Saying MOJs happen all the time is greatly inflating the number.  In any event to suggest evidence was planted because it happened in other cases is simply arbitrary and not evaluating on the basis of evidence in this case.  The number who think he is guilty and yet that evidence was planted is small and their basis of belief is just as arbitrary and unsupported as your opinion. 

I didn't say MOJ's happen all the time.  This is what I said:

"You seem oblivious to the fact wrongdoing, incompetence and miscarriage of justices happen all the time, in all walks of life and for a whole variety of reasons".

You only have to look at the UK's financial regulator's fines tables to witness wrongdoing and incompetence on a grand scale:

http://www.fsa.gov.uk/about/press/facts/fines

http://www.fca.org.uk/firms/being-regulated/enforcement/fines

At least in the financial services industry it is regulated and wrongdoing and incompetence are censured and punished and CEO's and others are banned from the industry.  When the judicial system fails it largely falls under the radar.  And when something goes wrong those responsible refuse to even apologise and are often rewarded for failure as in the Stefan Kiszko case where the QC responsible was made Home Secretary.  Worse still those that break the law by way of pejury are let off. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Lesley_Molseed

You have put the cart before the horse.  You decided it was planted and seek out evidence to support this view instead of following the evidence where it leads.  Only if evidence leads to the conclusion it was planted is the view supported.

I'm of the opinion the silencer/blood evidence was fabricated as none of it makes sense. 

I already listed the evidence. The document in question that notes scattered fragments has a line showing they were collected from inside the hole not on the outer surface and also indicated it is KM positive.  That alone should clue you in that it was from inside.  But if there is any doubt that is erased when you look at the fact that COLP said there was documented proof the lab notified police on 8/14/85 that blood was found inside the moderator.  Why would the lab lie to police and state such if Howard had not found any blood inside?  Furthermore Howard's statement says she removed blood from inside:



Then you have the fact that right inside the opening Lincoln removed blood and typed it as group A.

I don't make things up. I cited the facts.  If you want to claim someone planted it for her to find or that she planted it then removed it be my guest but denying she found any blood inside in order to avoid having to dela with it fails.

Do you think I made the quote up? Luckily I saved some snips I posted on blue.

Not only did she discuss it in her testimony in chief but also was cross examined about it





I'm not Mike I don't make things up.

You didn't pay attention to her COLP statement at all. They had signed originals from her, the only difference is the signed originals refer to the moderator as DB/1.  They re-typed it with the only change from her signed version being the new one referred to the moderator as DRB/1.  She said she would have signed the new one if they asked her to do so. The signed versions say blood was found inside and out.

Lincoln removed the blood from inside the bore, that is what he called the end. He said he found it in the end that was threaded.  He meant the end piece after it was removed.

That is also where Howard removed the blood from. He said there was no blood visible to the naked eye but enough was present to be able to test it and it was group A. The fact this blood was there for him to remove in 1986 means there was actually blood there inside.

This shows you the tip (End) removed from the moderator.  The end screws into the tube.  In order to be able to be screwed in the tube the end had to be threaded. This is threading Lincoln refers to where he found the blood. He found it not in the outside threading of this piece but inside the bore. He called it a threaded end because that when you hold this end piece on its own you see threads.

The end piece is on the right end of the photo that is the knurled piece removed.



The information is contradictory.  In GH's initial report she refers to three blood stains on the outside of the silencer and confirms they are all KM positive.  This corresponds with the findings of the CoA judges in 2002.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1026.0;attach=2053

75. Traces of blood in the form of smears were found in three places on the outside of the moderator: on the flat surface at the muzzle end, in the knurled end and in the ridge at the gun end of the device. The blood on the outside of the moderator was confirmed to be of human origin but there were insufficient quantities to permit grouping analysis.

On the flat surface (bore end) GH refers to a stain and indicates it is KM positive.  She also marks up "scattered fragments".  Throughout the case I have only seen the blood referred to as "stains", "splashes" and "smears".  My interpretation of the "scattered fragments" is that this refers to paint.  However, even if I am wrong and GH did identify blood within the bore, as claimed at trial, it still doesn't make sense to me that JH found a "considerable amount" inside and yet the amount around the bore was of such small quantity that it required a microscope and cotton threads to be recovered.  It also begs the question why GH didn't take it upon herself to see if the blood went beyond the bore and inside the actual silencer and/or take it up with others eg Malcolm Fletcher ballistics and/or John Hayward who it appears was her supervisor/manager?  The fact the blood inside the actual silencer was not identified until a month later and after the silencer had left the lab and was then returned just doesn't sit right with me.

Dr Lincoln did not examine the silencer until 1986.  The fact he found evidence of blood doesn't prove the blood was there as a result of SC's gunshot wounds/drawback

In the absence of high quality photographs or accurate drawings it is not clear what people are referring to.  You say Dr Lincoln meant this that or the other but how do you know what he meant?  How can any of this fill you with confidence about these people when the documents are of such poor quality that they are so open to interpretation?  I could pick out numerous documents and find all sorts of inconsistencies and contradictions but what does it prove? 

Blood pattern analysis should have played a part in the silencer/blood evidence but it didn't.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloodstain_pattern_analysis

Dr Lincoln was an expert in blood serology not blood pattern analysis. 

You have stated on numerous occasions that draw-back/back spatter results in high velocity spatter which presents as a fine mist like spray so how does this equate with a flake of blood measuring a 1/4 of an inch?
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Caroline

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #173 on: March 29, 2016, 05:20:13 PM »
Saying MOJs happen all the time is greatly inflating the number.  In any event to suggest evidence was planted because it happened in other cases is simply arbitrary and not evaluating on the basis of evidence in this case.  The number who think he is guilty and yet that evidence was planted is small and their basis of belief is just as arbitrary and unsupported as your opinion. 

You have put the cart before the horse.  You decided it was planted and seek out evidence to support this view instead of following the evidence where it leads.  Only if evidence leads to the conclusion it was planted is the view supported.


I already listed the evidence. The document in question that notes scattered fragments has a line showing they were collected from inside the hole not on the outer surface and also indicated it is KM positive.  That alone should clue you in that it was from inside.  But if there is any doubt that is erased when you look at the fact that COLP said there was documented proof the lab notified police on 8/14/85 that blood was found inside the moderator.  Why would the lab lie to police and state such if Howard had not found any blood inside?  Furthermore Howard's statement says she removed blood from inside:



Then you have the fact that right inside the opening Lincoln removed blood and typed it as group A.

I don't make things up. I cited the facts.  If you want to claim someone planted it for her to find or that she planted it then removed it be my guest but denying she found any blood inside in order to avoid having to dela with it fails.

Do you think I made the quote up? Luckily I saved some snips I posted on blue.

Not only did she discuss it in her testimony in chief but also was cross examined about it





I'm not Mike I don't make things up.

You didn't pay attention to her COLP statement at all. They had signed originals from her, the only difference is the signed originals refer to the moderator as DB/1.  They re-typed it with the only change from her signed version being the new one referred to the moderator as DRB/1.  She said she would have signed the new one if they asked her to do so. The signed versions say blood was found inside and out.

Lincoln removed the blood from inside the bore, that is what he called the end. He said he found it in the end that was threaded.  He meant the end piece after it was removed.

That is also where Howard removed the blood from. He said there was no blood visible to the naked eye but enough was present to be able to test it and it was group A. The fact this blood was there for him to remove in 1986 means there was actually blood there inside.

This shows you the tip (End) removed from the moderator.  The end screws into the tube.  In order to be able to be screwed in the tube the end had to be threaded. This is threading Lincoln refers to where he found the blood. He found it not in the outside threading of this piece but inside the bore. He called it a threaded end because that when you hold this end piece on its own you see threads.

The end piece is on the right end of the photo that is the knurled piece removed.



Where does Lincoln state that he was able to test the blood successfully for type A? The 2002 appeal doc states that the first eight plates gave a very weak positive reaction for blood but nothing about it being type A?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #174 on: March 29, 2016, 06:27:59 PM »
Where does Lincoln state that he was able to test the blood successfully for type A? The 2002 appeal doc states that the first eight plates gave a very weak positive reaction for blood but nothing about it being type A?

Scipio is referring to the thread end but imo it's all hopelessly unreliable with one document contradicting another and/or so much ambiguity you might as well not even bother reading them. 

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=923



Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #175 on: March 29, 2016, 06:51:04 PM »
I didn't say MOJ's happen all the time.  This is what I said:

"You seem oblivious to the fact wrongdoing, incompetence and miscarriage of justices happen all the time, in all walks of life and for a whole variety of reasons".

You only have to look at the UK's financial regulator's fines tables to witness wrongdoing and incompetence on a grand scale:

http://www.fsa.gov.uk/about/press/facts/fines

http://www.fca.org.uk/firms/being-regulated/enforcement/fines

At least in the financial services industry it is regulated and wrongdoing and incompetence are censured and punished and CEO's and others are banned from the industry.  When the judicial system fails it largely falls under the radar.  And when something goes wrong those responsible refuse to even apologise and are often rewarded for failure as in the Stefan Kiszko case where the QC responsible was made Home Secretary.  Worse still those that break the law by way of pejury are let off. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Lesley_Molseed

I'm of the opinion the silencer/blood evidence was fabricated as none of it makes sense. 

It is the allegations of the blood being planted that make no sense.

Jeremy's claims that the rifle was unable to be stored with the moderator attached make no sense and in fact were obvious lies.  His claims that Nevill kept removing the moderator and scope makes no sense and were obvious lies.  Jeremy even changed his story during the course of the interrogation.  He told Taff Jones that he last used the gun a week to fortnight before the murders. Stan Jones pointed out AP's statements about how the rifle was stored etc and suddenly Jeremy changed his story saying he and Nevill both continuously used it the week leading up to the murders and that sometimes Nevill removed the scope and moderator before putting it away while other times he left them attached.  Jeremy said he used the gun however he happened to find it he didn't bother to use the accessories. 

Jeremy was not known to grab the weapon to run after vermin so his story of getting the gun to shoot rabbits makes no sense. It makes even less sense when you look at the 3 different tales he told. He claimed he heard the rabbits from the kitchen, saw the rabbits from the kitchen and finally claimed he saw them while walking to the house and decided to get the gun to go pursue them.  It makes no sense to think rabbits would still be there minutes later and the normal practice of vermin hunting is to either go around searching them out or simply to keep your weapon with you while working in case one happens to cross your path. If Jeremy had been known to run to get the gun anytime he saw rabbits it would be one thing but he wasn't known to shoot vermin period let alone to go grab the weapon anytime he saw any and hope they were still there.  It still gets even worse though.  it makes no sense to be in a hurry to load the weapon and instead of loading it in the office to take the gun and place it in the scullery then to go in the kitchen with the bullets and magazine to load it in the kitchen. His claim he always did that is absurd. In any event he claimed he took a full or near full box and dumped it out in the kitchen and loaded the magazine from it. A full box contains 50, 25 shots were fired thus no more than 25 bullets should have remained and yet there were 30 bullets in the kitchen. This makes no sense either.  Nor would it make sense for Jeremy to leave the ammo and gun out as he claimed he did, particularly knowing the kids were staying over. It makes no sense for June and Nevill to leave the ammo and gun out either and June used the phone after the bullets were supposedly dumped next to it so would have to see them.

You ignore all these things that make no sense but on the other hand invent the notion that it would make no sense for Jeremy to use the moderator and no sense for any blood to be inside by inventing the notion that Jeremy would know all about drawback.

That same pretense is employed to pretend that the family and police would know all about drawback and be able to plant the blood.  The excuses run the gamut from claiming they would have to know because they shot vermin to having to know because of being a registered gun dealer.  It is these claims that make no sense.

The only people with the requisite knowledge would be the lab workers and yet there is no evidence at all to support any planting of evidence and suggestions the lab was involved in a fraud fare no better in terms of logic.

You completely flip things on their head.


The information is contradictory.  In GH's initial report she refers to three blood stains on the outside of the silencer and confirms they are all KM positive.  This corresponds with the findings of the CoA judges in 2002.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1026.0;attach=2053

75. Traces of blood in the form of smears were found in three places on the outside of the moderator: on the flat surface at the muzzle end, in the knurled end and in the ridge at the gun end of the device. The blood on the outside of the moderator was confirmed to be of human origin but there were insufficient quantities to permit grouping analysis.

On the flat surface (bore end) GH refers to a stain and indicates it is KM positive.  She also marks up "scattered fragments".  Throughout the case I have only seen the blood referred to as "stains", "splashes" and "smears".  My interpretation of the "scattered fragments" is that this refers to paint.  However, even if I am wrong and GH did identify blood within the bore, as claimed at trial, it still doesn't make sense to me that JH found a "considerable amount" inside and yet the amount around the bore was of such small quantity that it required a microscope and cotton threads to be recovered.  It also begs the question why GH didn't take it upon herself to see if the blood went beyond the bore and inside the actual silencer and/or take it up with others eg Malcolm Fletcher ballistics and/or John Hayward who it appears was her supervisor/manager?  The fact the blood inside the actual silencer was not identified until a month later and after the silencer had left the lab and was then returned just doesn't sit right with me.

It doesn't sit right with you because of your bias.  Your bias causes you to ignore that the drawing points to inside the bore and refers to blood being removed from the bore. Your bias causes you to ignore the evidence that proves police were told on 8/14/85 that blood had been found inside the moderator.  Your biases causes you to assert that because the COA opinion failed to discuss Howard finding blood inside that such means she didn't even though she testified to such. You ignore that the blood she removed was not relevant to the appeal thus not mentioned and pretend that since it wasn't discussed that means it didn't exist. Your bias made you say that
her statement posted her and on blue was fraudulent because it was not signed though her COLP testimony explained why this particular copy was not signed and detailed that there were in fact signed copies with the same exact wording save the exhibit number of the moderator.  Upon it being proven that she did in fact sign the statement and testify she found blood inside your bias makes you suggest Howard lied in her statement and on the stand about finding blood inside even though there is contemporaneous documentary evidence noting it and there is no reason for her to lie.
   
In her testimony she stated that she tried to unscrew the moderator but the end was too tight and that she didn't want to destroy potential fingerprint evidence by manhandling it so it was decided to first fingerprint it and then afterwards to do more thorough testing of the moderator by taking it apart.  This makes perfect sense though your bias prevents you from admitting it.  She went on sick leave in September that is why the case was handed over to Hayward in September, that makes sense too. Upon her return in November she gave her statement regarding the work she did.

Jeremy removed the scope because it would inhibit accurate aiming of the weapon at close quarters.  This is the only reason to remove the scope that makes sense.

Jeremy didn't want victims in other rooms to wake up thus used the moderator, this makes perfect sense.

Sheila suffered a wound that would result in drawback and thus her blood got inside the moderator but not the rifle. This makes perfect sense.

Tiny amounts of high velocity backspatter got on the outside of the moderator, this makes perfect sense in a close quarter shooting.

When trying to stage the weapon on Sheila Jeremy realized it was too long with the moderator attached for Sheila to kill herself so he removed it, this makes perfect sense. 

Jeremy didn't want police to know the moderator had been used because Sheila using it would be inconsistent with going crazy and it would be easier for Nevill to disarm her with it attached so he put it away in the closet hiding it.  He didn't know anything about drawback so had no idea her blood would be inside and didn't see the 3 tiny blood stains so failed to clean those 3 stains off.  He made up a story of leaving the gun out without the moderator attached and figured police would not go look for the moderator and he was right they didn't.

It is your bias not anything objective that causes you to say things do not make sense and to disbelieve the evidence.  What you choose to believe is meaningless what you can prove is what matters and you can't prove a thing.

It does not bode well for you though to suggest that months later Howard lied about finding blood inside the moderator. Ignoring that her diagram shows blood found inside the bore and that police were notified of blood found inside on 8/14/85 and trying to pretend that months later she made the claim up makes you look like a dishonest hack.  If you want to accuse her of planting blood and fabricating evidence then accuse her of doing so on 8/13 don't try to pretend she made up the blood months later when there is documentary evidence proving police were notified on 8/14 that blood was found in the bore and that her diagram shows it.  You have no evidence she planted blood period but if you want to make accusations at least make ones around the evidence instead of simply ignoring the evidence and pretending evidence that is unfavorable doesn't exist.

Dr Lincoln did not examine the silencer until 1986.  The fact he found evidence of blood doesn't prove the blood was there as a result of SC's gunshot wounds/drawback

It proves there really was group A blood right inside the bore where Howard said she found blood and that there really was blood on the first 8 baffles. Alleging that the lab made up finding blood is futile.  If you want to accuse the of wrongdoing you have to allege they planted the blood and then removed it as opposed to claiming they simple made up that they found blood inside and did testing on material that was from a vile. 


In the absence of high quality photographs or accurate drawings it is not clear what people are referring to.  You say Dr Lincoln meant this that or the other but how do you know what he meant?  How can any of this fill you with confidence about these people when the documents are of such poor quality that they are so open to interpretation?  I could pick out numerous documents and find all sorts of inconsistencies and contradictions but what does it prove? 

Blood pattern analysis should have played a part in the silencer/blood evidence but it didn't.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloodstain_pattern_analysis

Dr Lincoln was an expert in blood serology not blood pattern analysis. 

You have stated on numerous occasions that draw-back/back spatter results in high velocity spatter which presents as a fine mist like spray so how does this equate with a flake of blood measuring a 1/4 of an inch?

You claim her drawing is not accurate because of your bias, Howard says it is accurate.

I know what Lincoln meant because he was not insane.  He explained which parts he tested, "Whilst at the Home Office Laboratory I examined the various components of the moderator for traces of blood...the end piece, the adjacent ring collar and 17 baffle plates."

The end piece means the piece the bore hole that unscrews to open the moderator up.  He wrote, "I obtained the strongest positive reactions indicating the presence of blood on the screw thread on the inside at the end of the moderator, Weak of very weak positive reactions which could have indicated the presence of blood were detectable on the collar ring and the first 8 baffle plates. These reactions were all weak."

So he broke down what he found on each of the 3 sections. He first detailed blood found on the end piece with the bore then discussed the collar ring and finally the baffles. On the end piece with the bore he found the largest presence of blood.  He said he found it INSIDE not outside.  Only an insane person would think that blood would be in the outside threads as opposed to inside the bore of the end cap so even if he had not specified he found it inside the logical assumption would be he only tested the inside. The nuts at Justice For All chose to ignore such common sense and his own words of the blood being found inside and engaged in insane speculation that maybe Lincoln found the blood on the outside threads which the blood would have no way to get on until after the tip is unscrewed. Lincoln had no reason to test the outside threads but if he did so and found blood there he would not be insane and hold it out as evidence to support the prosecution.  He would have claimed it was proof blood contaminated the threads at some point while it was apart.  The fact Lincoln didn't make that claim is enough to say he wasn't claiming such but Justice For All investigated that anyway and it went no where.  Anyone possessing reading comprehension skills and common sense understands that Lincoln found the blood inside the bore of the end piece not on the outside of the end piece.

Blood pattern analysis doesn't apply in the least to drawback.  The characteristics of drawback is blood getting inside a weapon at depths greater than 5mm but no more than several inches. The blood will spray inside and thus go inside at different angles.  In a barrel it often will get inside the rifling grooving. The quantity of blood will decrease as you get further inside.  This is because the smaller blood particles travel further than the larger ones. The main difference with a moderators compared to barrels is that it is wider and instead of rifling it has obstructions. The same pattern will be observed of the largest blood particles near the front and fewer and fewer particles on each successive baffle.  That is in fact what Hayward said he observed. Blood dries in flakes a flake a quarter of an inch in diameter is not very big. There was a substantial amount of blood available to go inside the weapon so this is not at all surprising. The moderator is not of a material that absorbs blood so what would happen to blood that falls to the bottom and pools? It would form into a flake.   The experts do not find such odd you do only because of your bias not because of there is anything actually wrong with it.

     
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #176 on: March 29, 2016, 07:17:09 PM »
Where does Lincoln state that he was able to test the blood successfully for type A? The 2002 appeal doc states that the first eight plates gave a very weak positive reaction for blood but nothing about it being type A?


In his report. "I have been able to perform tests for the ABO blood groups on material which I collected from the screw thread at the end of the moderator. I selected this material for testing because it produced the strongest positive reactions when I performed the screening tests for the presence of blood. The results obtained in these grouping tests demonstrated the presence of blood group A activity. This is consistent with the ABO grouping result obtained by Mr. Howard on blood from inside the moderator."

As just noted to Holly in my previous post Lincoln identified 3 different parts of the moderator he tested for the presence of blood 1) inside the end piece, 2) the collar ring and 3) the baffles.  He said he got weak reactions on the collar ring and first 8 baffles but the strongest reaction on the blood he removed from the inside of the end piece.

He called it the threaded end piece because when it is apart you see the threads on the outside but he specified he found the blood inside.  The logical place to look is inside the bore not on the outside threads which was hidden when it is on the moderator.

The appeal was only concerned with Lincoln's tests of the baffles because the issue before the court was DNA found on the baffles it is such DNA that the defense argued was June's mixed with Nevill's. The DNA in 5 other areas was Sheila's so the defense wanted to ignore that.  In fact, that is one of the reasons why defense expert Webster presented all his theories on contamination. Obviously that undercut the defense as well though.     
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #177 on: March 29, 2016, 09:23:55 PM »
It is the allegations of the blood being planted that make no sense.

Jeremy's claims that the rifle was unable to be stored with the moderator attached make no sense and in fact were obvious lies.  His claims that Nevill kept removing the moderator and scope makes no sense and were obvious lies.  Jeremy even changed his story during the course of the interrogation.  He told Taff Jones that he last used the gun a week to fortnight before the murders. Stan Jones pointed out AP's statements about how the rifle was stored etc and suddenly Jeremy changed his story saying he and Nevill both continuously used it the week leading up to the murders and that sometimes Nevill removed the scope and moderator before putting it away while other times he left them attached.  Jeremy said he used the gun however he happened to find it he didn't bother to use the accessories. 

Jeremy was not known to grab the weapon to run after vermin so his story of getting the gun to shoot rabbits makes no sense. It makes even less sense when you look at the 3 different tales he told. He claimed he heard the rabbits from the kitchen, saw the rabbits from the kitchen and finally claimed he saw them while walking to the house and decided to get the gun to go pursue them.  It makes no sense to think rabbits would still be there minutes later and the normal practice of vermin hunting is to either go around searching them out or simply to keep your weapon with you while working in case one happens to cross your path. If Jeremy had been known to run to get the gun anytime he saw rabbits it would be one thing but he wasn't known to shoot vermin period let alone to go grab the weapon anytime he saw any and hope they were still there.  It still gets even worse though.  it makes no sense to be in a hurry to load the weapon and instead of loading it in the office to take the gun and place it in the scullery then to go in the kitchen with the bullets and magazine to load it in the kitchen. His claim he always did that is absurd. In any event he claimed he took a full or near full box and dumped it out in the kitchen and loaded the magazine from it. A full box contains 50, 25 shots were fired thus no more than 25 bullets should have remained and yet there were 30 bullets in the kitchen. This makes no sense either.  Nor would it make sense for Jeremy to leave the ammo and gun out as he claimed he did, particularly knowing the kids were staying over. It makes no sense for June and Nevill to leave the ammo and gun out either and June used the phone after the bullets were supposedly dumped next to it so would have to see them.

You ignore all these things that make no sense but on the other hand invent the notion that it would make no sense for Jeremy to use the moderator and no sense for any blood to be inside by inventing the notion that Jeremy would know all about drawback.

That same pretense is employed to pretend that the family and police would know all about drawback and be able to plant the blood.  The excuses run the gamut from claiming they would have to know because they shot vermin to having to know because of being a registered gun dealer.  It is these claims that make no sense.

The only people with the requisite knowledge would be the lab workers and yet there is no evidence at all to support any planting of evidence and suggestions the lab was involved in a fraud fare no better in terms of logic.

You completely flip things on their head.


It doesn't sit right with you because of your bias.  Your bias causes you to ignore that the drawing points to inside the bore and refers to blood being removed from the bore. Your bias causes you to ignore the evidence that proves police were told on 8/14/85 that blood had been found inside the moderator.  Your biases causes you to assert that because the COA opinion failed to discuss Howard finding blood inside that such means she didn't even though she testified to such. You ignore that the blood she removed was not relevant to the appeal thus not mentioned and pretend that since it wasn't discussed that means it didn't exist. Your bias made you say that
her statement posted her and on blue was fraudulent because it was not signed though her COLP testimony explained why this particular copy was not signed and detailed that there were in fact signed copies with the same exact wording save the exhibit number of the moderator.  Upon it being proven that she did in fact sign the statement and testify she found blood inside your bias makes you suggest Howard lied in her statement and on the stand about finding blood inside even though there is contemporaneous documentary evidence noting it and there is no reason for her to lie.
   
In her testimony she stated that she tried to unscrew the moderator but the end was too tight and that she didn't want to destroy potential fingerprint evidence by manhandling it so it was decided to first fingerprint it and then afterwards to do more thorough testing of the moderator by taking it apart.  This makes perfect sense though your bias prevents you from admitting it.  She went on sick leave in September that is why the case was handed over to Hayward in September, that makes sense too. Upon her return in November she gave her statement regarding the work she did.

Jeremy removed the scope because it would inhibit accurate aiming of the weapon at close quarters.  This is the only reason to remove the scope that makes sense.

Jeremy didn't want victims in other rooms to wake up thus used the moderator, this makes perfect sense.

Sheila suffered a wound that would result in drawback and thus her blood got inside the moderator but not the rifle. This makes perfect sense.

Tiny amounts of high velocity backspatter got on the outside of the moderator, this makes perfect sense in a close quarter shooting.

When trying to stage the weapon on Sheila Jeremy realized it was too long with the moderator attached for Sheila to kill herself so he removed it, this makes perfect sense. 

Jeremy didn't want police to know the moderator had been used because Sheila using it would be inconsistent with going crazy and it would be easier for Nevill to disarm her with it attached so he put it away in the closet hiding it.  He didn't know anything about drawback so had no idea her blood would be inside and didn't see the 3 tiny blood stains so failed to clean those 3 stains off.  He made up a story of leaving the gun out without the moderator attached and figured police would not go look for the moderator and he was right they didn't.

It is your bias not anything objective that causes you to say things do not make sense and to disbelieve the evidence.  What you choose to believe is meaningless what you can prove is what matters and you can't prove a thing.

It does not bode well for you though to suggest that months later Howard lied about finding blood inside the moderator. Ignoring that her diagram shows blood found inside the bore and that police were notified of blood found inside on 8/14/85 and trying to pretend that months later she made the claim up makes you look like a dishonest hack.  If you want to accuse her of planting blood and fabricating evidence then accuse her of doing so on 8/13 don't try to pretend she made up the blood months later when there is documentary evidence proving police were notified on 8/14 that blood was found in the bore and that her diagram shows it.  You have no evidence she planted blood period but if you want to make accusations at least make ones around the evidence instead of simply ignoring the evidence and pretending evidence that is unfavorable doesn't exist.

It proves there really was group A blood right inside the bore where Howard said she found blood and that there really was blood on the first 8 baffles. Alleging that the lab made up finding blood is futile.  If you want to accuse the of wrongdoing you have to allege they planted the blood and then removed it as opposed to claiming they simple made up that they found blood inside and did testing on material that was from a vile. 

You claim her drawing is not accurate because of your bias, Howard says it is accurate.

I know what Lincoln meant because he was not insane.  He explained which parts he tested, "Whilst at the Home Office Laboratory I examined the various components of the moderator for traces of blood...the end piece, the adjacent ring collar and 17 baffle plates."

The end piece means the piece the bore hole that unscrews to open the moderator up.  He wrote, "I obtained the strongest positive reactions indicating the presence of blood on the screw thread on the inside at the end of the moderator, Weak of very weak positive reactions which could have indicated the presence of blood were detectable on the collar ring and the first 8 baffle plates. These reactions were all weak."

So he broke down what he found on each of the 3 sections. He first detailed blood found on the end piece with the bore then discussed the collar ring and finally the baffles. On the end piece with the bore he found the largest presence of blood.  He said he found it INSIDE not outside.  Only an insane person would think that blood would be in the outside threads as opposed to inside the bore of the end cap so even if he had not specified he found it inside the logical assumption would be he only tested the inside. The nuts at Justice For All chose to ignore such common sense and his own words of the blood being found inside and engaged in insane speculation that maybe Lincoln found the blood on the outside threads which the blood would have no way to get on until after the tip is unscrewed. Lincoln had no reason to test the outside threads but if he did so and found blood there he would not be insane and hold it out as evidence to support the prosecution.  He would have claimed it was proof blood contaminated the threads at some point while it was apart.  The fact Lincoln didn't make that claim is enough to say he wasn't claiming such but Justice For All investigated that anyway and it went no where.  Anyone possessing reading comprehension skills and common sense understands that Lincoln found the blood inside the bore of the end piece not on the outside of the end piece.

Blood pattern analysis doesn't apply in the least to drawback.  The characteristics of drawback is blood getting inside a weapon at depths greater than 5mm but no more than several inches. The blood will spray inside and thus go inside at different angles.  In a barrel it often will get inside the rifling grooving. The quantity of blood will decrease as you get further inside.  This is because the smaller blood particles travel further than the larger ones. The main difference with a moderators compared to barrels is that it is wider and instead of rifling it has obstructions. The same pattern will be observed of the largest blood particles near the front and fewer and fewer particles on each successive baffle.  That is in fact what Hayward said he observed. Blood dries in flakes a flake a quarter of an inch in diameter is not very big. There was a substantial amount of blood available to go inside the weapon so this is not at all surprising. The moderator is not of a material that absorbs blood so what would happen to blood that falls to the bottom and pools? It would form into a flake.   The experts do not find such odd you do only because of your bias not because of there is anything actually wrong with it.   

Thank you for taking the time to provide a detailed response  8((()*/

I'm not convinced by a lot of subjectivity about rabbits and whether or not someone took a scope off or not etc, etc.  I'm convinced by hard indisputable scientific facts.  Science shows that dried blood stains recovered from a scene of crime require careful collection and preservation in order to yield blood test results.  The silencer and flake of blood were not carefully collected and preserved; in fact anything but.  Futhermore the size of the flake measuring 1/4 of an inch was way too small to yield the sort of results claimed.

http://www.helena.com/Literature/Book%20C3Rev6.pdf
(See Page 5)

"III.
Sample Extraction and Storage


To preserve enzymatic activity, any materials containing dried blood stains should be frozen. At the time of   testing, cut a  0.5 cm x 0.5 cm piece of stained material from the original sample and place in a well with 2  to 3   drops of solvent".

You will note the 0.5cm x 0.5cm refers to each individual enzyme/protein test using gel electrophoresis.

http://www.crime-scene-investigator.net/print/blood-print.html
(a little way down)

"Conventional serological analysis

Analysis of the proteins, enzymes, and antigens present in the blood. These substances are more susceptible to degradation than DNA and this type of testing usually requires a "large" sample (quarter size) in good condition for optimal results. This type of testing is rarely statistically individualizing".

Quarter size = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarter_%28United_States_coin%29

You seem to think that quality and quantity are irrelevant.  They are not and in the fullness of time this will be demonstrated.  The silencer/blood flake was fabricated period.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2016, 09:40:23 PM by Holly Goodhead »
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Caroline

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #178 on: March 29, 2016, 11:50:50 PM »
Thank you for taking the time to provide a detailed response  8((()*/

I'm not convinced by a lot of subjectivity about rabbits and whether or not someone took a scope off or not etc, etc.  I'm convinced by hard indisputable scientific facts.  Science shows that dried blood stains recovered from a scene of crime require careful collection and preservation in order to yield blood test results.  The silencer and flake of blood were not carefully collected and preserved; in fact anything but.  Futhermore the size of the flake measuring 1/4 of an inch was way too small to yield the sort of results claimed.

http://www.helena.com/Literature/Book%20C3Rev6.pdf
(See Page 5)

"III.
Sample Extraction and Storage


To preserve enzymatic activity, any materials containing dried blood stains should be frozen. At the time of   testing, cut a  0.5 cm x 0.5 cm piece of stained material from the original sample and place in a well with 2  to 3   drops of solvent".

You will note the 0.5cm x 0.5cm refers to each individual enzyme/protein test using gel electrophoresis.

http://www.crime-scene-investigator.net/print/blood-print.html
(a little way down)

"Conventional serological analysis

Analysis of the proteins, enzymes, and antigens present in the blood. These substances are more susceptible to degradation than DNA and this type of testing usually requires a "large" sample (quarter size) in good condition for optimal results. This type of testing is rarely statistically individualizing".

Quarter size = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarter_%28United_States_coin%29

You seem to think that quality and quantity are irrelevant.  They are not and in the fullness of time this will be demonstrated.  The silencer/blood flake was fabricated period.

I really don't believe that claim would stand up given that there is nothing to say how big it was - just a best guess. Hayward testified to having obtained results so you would have to accuse him and or his team of lying. This is yet more people to include in the conspiracy - for what reason would they fabricate the blood evidence?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #179 on: March 30, 2016, 07:52:45 AM »
I really don't believe that claim would stand up given that there is nothing to say how big it was - just a best guess. Hayward testified to having obtained results so you would have to accuse him and or his team of lying. This is yet more people to include in the conspiracy - for what reason would they fabricate the blood evidence?

Believe what you want to believe and let the science tell the truth.

464. Mr Webster made a number of points:

i) He suggested that the flake, which was a quarter of an inch across, might not have been a flake of blood but a flake of soot splattered with blood that had been mistaken by Mr Hayward for a flake of blood.


http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html


I see a lot of parallels between the cases of Stefan Kiszko and JB. 

- Four prosecution witnesses lied
- Detective superintendent and forensic scientist deliberately suppressed scientific tests which would have cleared Stefan Kiszko.
- Poor defence
- An unsuccessful COA

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Lesley_Molseed


Prejudice based on what the lab were told about the case by the police and 'obedience to authority' are probably the most likely reasons.  Remember the police and lab staff were both employed by the Home Office.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?