Author Topic: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake  (Read 50728 times)

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Offline Myster

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #180 on: March 30, 2016, 09:25:02 AM »
I see a lot of parallels here between Jeremy Bamber and Stephen Seddon - they're both greedy, scheming murderers who were determined to get their hands on their parents' wealth at any cost!
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline Caroline

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #181 on: March 30, 2016, 11:11:00 AM »
Believe what you want to believe and let the science tell the truth.

464. Mr Webster made a number of points:

i) He suggested that the flake, which was a quarter of an inch across, might not have been a flake of blood but a flake of soot splattered with blood that had been mistaken by Mr Hayward for a flake of blood.


http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html


I see a lot of parallels between the cases of Stefan Kiszko and JB. 

- Four prosecution witnesses lied
- Detective superintendent and forensic scientist deliberately suppressed scientific tests which would have cleared Stefan Kiszko.
- Poor defence
- An unsuccessful COA

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Lesley_Molseed


Prejudice based on what the lab were told about the case by the police and 'obedience to authority' are probably the most likely reasons.  Remember the police and lab staff were both employed by the Home Office.

1/4 of an inch was a best guess and the flake of soot theory was basically ridiculed. You must also have read Websters account of how difficult it would be to try and replicate the shooting and achieve similar results?

There are very few similarities between Bamber and Stefan Kiszko. It is clear why they fitted Stefan up, they didn't have anyone else to pin it on and he 'fit the stereotype' - he was a TRUE MOJ, whereas the police had Sheila as a suspect. There was no need to fit up an innocent man, changing from Sheila to Jeremy made them look stupid to boot and resulted in a lot of criticism. The lab certainly had no reason to fit up Jeremy whether they were employed by the Home Office or not, they were still scientists and would have been aware that their methods and findings would come under close scrutiny. At the end of the day, it would be Hayward that would be in the firing line if they had falsified the findings, so unless he had a real personal hatred of Bamber (which he clearly had no reason for), I very much doubt he would stick his neck on the line for EP.

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #182 on: March 30, 2016, 05:36:11 PM »
Thank you for taking the time to provide a detailed response  8((()*/

I'm not convinced by a lot of subjectivity about rabbits and whether or not someone took a scope off or not etc, etc.  I'm convinced by hard indisputable scientific facts.  Science shows that dried blood stains recovered from a scene of crime require careful collection and preservation in order to yield blood test results.  The silencer and flake of blood were not carefully collected and preserved; in fact anything but.  Futhermore the size of the flake measuring 1/4 of an inch was way too small to yield the sort of results claimed.

http://www.helena.com/Literature/Book%20C3Rev6.pdf
(See Page 5)

"III.
Sample Extraction and Storage


To preserve enzymatic activity, any materials containing dried blood stains should be frozen. At the time of   testing, cut a  0.5 cm x 0.5 cm piece of stained material from the original sample and place in a well with 2  to 3   drops of solvent".

You will note the 0.5cm x 0.5cm refers to each individual enzyme/protein test using gel electrophoresis.

http://www.crime-scene-investigator.net/print/blood-print.html
(a little way down)

"Conventional serological analysis

Analysis of the proteins, enzymes, and antigens present in the blood. These substances are more susceptible to degradation than DNA and this type of testing usually requires a "large" sample (quarter size) in good condition for optimal results. This type of testing is rarely statistically individualizing".

Quarter size = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarter_%28United_States_coin%29

You seem to think that quality and quantity are irrelevant.  They are not and in the fullness of time this will be demonstrated.  The silencer/blood flake was fabricated period.

You have some desire to believe Jeremy was framed and thus the evidence was fabricated.  You claim you are following science but in fact you simply are making up claims that the evidence could not have survived and could not have been present in order to find a way to pretend there is proof that the evidence was fabricated.

You make up hard rules that blood and enzymes can't possibly have survived though there are documented cases where evidence was tested months later successfully.  Blood experts would have told the defense in 1986 that it was impossible if that were actually the case.  You are not being driven by the evidence but rather decided what you want to believe and try to find some way to justify it.

Your claim that the blood evidence was fabricated period is simply wishful thinking on your part. You have zilch to establish it. 

Here is what is required for the moderator evidence to have been fabricated:

1) By 8/13/85 someone planting tiny amounts of blood on the face of the moderator, inside the moderator bore, inside the knurled portion as well as on the tube.

2) someone deciding to also plant red paint in the knurled portion by 8/13/85

3) someone planting blood so it formed into the flake as well as blood on the first 8 baffles in diminishing quantity to mimic drawback

4) removing blood from the rifle muzzle and concealing that it had been found

Analysis:

A) Why would someone bother planting paint if they had planted blood?

B) Only someone who knew a lot about about the concept of drawback and also knew that Sheila had a wound that result in drawback would plant blood inside.

C) The person would thus also know about serology and have to find out Sheila's blood attributes and find a source of blood containing such attributes otherwise use her own blood

D) The blood on the baffles and flake in between the baffles would have to have been planted by 8/13/85 as well because how could someone be sure that Howard would choose not to open it up?  If someone planted the blood found by Howard and then weeks later decided to plant more blood the person would have to have direct knowledge that Howard didn't open it up or Howard would be able to say it was not there when she looked at it and thus expose it as having been planted.

Since you suggest the blood was added later you are effectively arguing 3 different plantings:

I. very early on planting the blood that Howard removed

II. very early on planting red paint

III. Subsequent to the superglue fuming planting the flake and blood on the baffles

IV. In addition blood had to have been found in the rifle but the finding concealed

You have no evidence of 1 planting let alone 3 and it makes no sense  to plant both paint and blood. You have no evidence anyone knew anything about the concept of drawback other than the lab and no evidence that anyone other than lab personnel figured out that drawback would result from Sheila's fatal wound. Not even Vanezis explored the issue until after the lab raised it.

You invent notions where any gun dealer or person who shoots would know about drawback though this is nonsense.  There is not a single document where police posit drawback. Nothing where police asked Vanezis about the possibility of drawback occurring and if either would would result in drawback.  Nothing where Vanzesis told police anything about drawback or even contemplated it yet kept it to himself.  The police did not press the lab to do their blood work right away. Rather the police took their time to get it back to the lab after the superglue fuming had been done and the lab took weeks to then process it.  It was the lab personnel who assessed Sheila had a wound that would result in drawback, that there would have been blood in the muzzle had it been used without the moderator but inside the moderator if it had been used, tested the rifle and found the muzzle free of blood, tested the moderator and discovered drawback was in fact present inside.

At most you can accuse the family or police of planting paint or the blood on the outside.  They would have lacked the knowledge to plant it on the inside.  Accusing them with no proof though means nothing. 

You have to try to blame the lab of planing blood on the inside or soliciting others to do so and orchestrating the affair.  Again accusing them with no proof amounts to nothing.

Why would the lab do so?  The only way to accuse 1 person would be to say a lab worker planted it all right away on 8/13/85 before it was turned over to Howard and then Howard removed some but could not get it open so and left the rest or Howard planted it and for some odd reason left the blood she planted inside for a later date.  That's the only way to say 1 person planted it all. Not one person knew on 8/13 though that Sheila suffered a wound that would result in drawback not even Howard. 

It is extremely hard to believe one person did multiple plantings at different times let alone that multiple people decided to do multiple plantings.
   
Insisting this happened doesn't make it so.  It is just what you want to believe despite there being no evidence to establish it happened.  You want to believe it so badly you have convinced yourself that there is some scientific way to prove the blood could not have survived and been tested successfully and the fact it was tested successfully proves it was planted. You can believe this fallacy all you wish but it will not be able to sway others- especially not a court so at most its utility is to offer you solace so you can pretend to yourself that your support of Jeremy is scientific not for some subjective bias. Beyond that it is of no value.

Telling me just you wait and see is no better than Linus telling Charlie Brown just you wait till next year the Great Pumpkin surely will come.  He wanted to believe in the Great Pumpkin no matter what and that was that. You are free to believe as you wish but I prefer facing reality. 

“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #183 on: April 01, 2016, 03:36:17 PM »
1/4 of an inch was a best guess and the flake of soot theory was basically ridiculed. You must also have read Websters account of how difficult it would be to try and replicate the shooting and achieve similar results?

There are very few similarities between Bamber and Stefan Kiszko. It is clear why they fitted Stefan up, they didn't have anyone else to pin it on and he 'fit the stereotype' - he was a TRUE MOJ, whereas the police had Sheila as a suspect. There was no need to fit up an innocent man, changing from Sheila to Jeremy made them look stupid to boot and resulted in a lot of criticism. The lab certainly had no reason to fit up Jeremy whether they were employed by the Home Office or not, they were still scientists and would have been aware that their methods and findings would come under close scrutiny. At the end of the day, it would be Hayward that would be in the firing line if they had falsified the findings, so unless he had a real personal hatred of Bamber (which he clearly had no reason for), I very much doubt he would stick his neck on the line for EP.

Really?  How did the appeal court judges arrive at a 1/4 inch then?
« Last Edit: April 01, 2016, 03:41:22 PM by Holly Goodhead »
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #184 on: April 01, 2016, 05:13:33 PM »
Really?  How did the appeal court judges arrive at a 1/4 inch then?

Because that was Hayward's guess as to the size. Quite obviously it was neither a perfectly round flake nor square so the size was not uniform from every measurement angle. This was just an approximate to give some frame of reference.  He also guessed on the number of baffles that had blood, he failed to write down how many had blood. He guessed 5-7 but Lincoln proved it was actually 8.  Was he as far off on the size? Who knows...   
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #185 on: April 01, 2016, 05:27:33 PM »
Because that was Hayward's guess as to the size. Quite obviously it was neither a perfectly round flake nor square so the size was not uniform from every measurement angle. This was just an approximate to give some frame of reference.  He also guessed on the number of baffles that had blood, he failed to write down how many had blood. He guessed 5-7 but Lincoln proved it was actually 8.  Was he as far off on the size? Who knows...

So no photographs then?  What about a drawing?
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #186 on: April 01, 2016, 08:51:42 PM »
Caroline/Scipio

You have both said the size of the flake apparently found inside the silencer is unknown/guessed at.  So unlike Glynis who made a drawing of the outside of the silencer with an indication of the size of blood stains along with their location no one drew the inside of the silencer with similar information?  Is that correct?  Is that what you're saying?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7083.msg317631#msg317631

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7083.msg318033#msg318033
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #187 on: April 01, 2016, 09:25:52 PM »
Caroline/Scipio

You have both said the size of the flake apparently found inside the silencer is unknown/guessed at.  So unlike Glynis who made a drawing of the outside of the silencer with an indication of the size of blood stains along with their location no one drew the inside of the silencer with similar information?  Is that correct?  Is that what you're saying?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7083.msg317631#msg317631

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7083.msg318033#msg318033

I'm saying that he didn't carefully measure the flake from every angle to come up with exact dimensions. He either measured one dimension and found it to be about a quarter inch or he simply estimated the size as 1/4 inch and that is what he ran with.

Howard measured the size of stains before she removed any blood.  Those measurements no doubt were at the widest point of the stains.

Neither of them took photos before removing blood to test. In that era photos were not taken routinely except when you need to capture something like a finger print or the like because you can blow up and analyze a photo.

The sketch done was to illustrate generally where the blood had been obviously the drawings were not to scale. I draw far worse so am in no position to criticize.  Hayward didn't do any sketch and later could not even recall precisely where the flake had been. He simply knew the flake was either under the first or second baffle.
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #188 on: April 01, 2016, 10:20:59 PM »
I'm saying that he didn't carefully measure the flake from every angle to come up with exact dimensions. He either measured one dimension and found it to be about a quarter inch or he simply estimated the size as 1/4 inch and that is what he ran with.

Howard measured the size of stains before she removed any blood.  Those measurements no doubt were at the widest point of the stains.

Neither of them took photos before removing blood to test. In that era photos were not taken routinely except when you need to capture something like a finger print or the like because you can blow up and analyze a photo.

The sketch done was to illustrate generally where the blood had been obviously the drawings were not to scale. I draw far worse so am in no position to criticize.  Hayward didn't do any sketch and later could not even recall precisely where the flake had been. He simply knew the flake was either under the first or second baffle.

Thanks Scipio. 

Does Caroline agree?
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Caroline

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #189 on: April 02, 2016, 12:34:17 AM »
Really?  How did the appeal court judges arrive at a 1/4 inch then?

I believe that information was supplied by Webster

19. Q. -- following a visit that you had made to the Huntington Laboratory on 6th
April?

20. A. Yes, that is correct.

21. Q. At that time, were you seeking to understand the way in which Dr
Hayward had examined the blood in the silencer in this case?

22. A. Yes. I had gone on to the laboratory at the request of an organisation
called the Manchester McKenzie Organisation (inaudible) solicitors, to look
at this case. I was interested in the way the flake had been tested and I was
also going to have a look at the actual blood grouping results that had
been obtained.

23. Q. In terms of that visit, did you get information firstly that led you to an
opinion as to the probable size of the flake that was recovered from the
silencer at the time?

24. A. I had an idea of what size of flake would be considered appropriate for
the number of blood grouping tests that had been attempted and I had the
opportunity then to ask questions of Mr Hayward.

25. Q. Did you come away with an impression firstly of the size of the flake?

26. A. Yes, I did. Those two pieces of information lead me to believe that it might
have been a flake of perhaps a quarter of an inch across.

27. MR JUSTICE WRIGHT: How much across?

28. A. About a quarter of an inch across. A flake smaller than that, I do not think
scientists would have attempted the battery of blood grouping tests that
were ultimately attempted. I think you would be looking at a flake that size.

29. MR JUSTICE WRIGHT: So that is a minimum of a quarter of an inch, is it?

30. A. Yes. I think if it was any larger, it would not have come out of the
(inaudible).

31. MR TURNER: For the sake of completeness, was it your understanding
whether any notes taken at the time of Dr Hayward's testing of this flake
were as to the size of the flake?

32. A. I have seen the notes, or rather copies of them. There is no indication as to
the size of the flake.


33. Q. Okay. So that is your impression.


Offline Caroline

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #190 on: April 02, 2016, 12:37:05 AM »
I believe that information was supplied by Webster - doc uploaded below.

19. Q. -- following a visit that you had made to the Huntington Laboratory on 6th
April?

20. A. Yes, that is correct.

21. Q. At that time, were you seeking to understand the way in which Dr
Hayward had examined the blood in the silencer in this case?

22. A. Yes. I had gone on to the laboratory at the request of an organisation
called the Manchester McKenzie Organisation (inaudible) solicitors, to look
at this case. I was interested in the way the flake had been tested and I was
also going to have a look at the actual blood grouping results that had
been obtained.

23. Q. In terms of that visit, did you get information firstly that led you to an
opinion as to the probable size of the flake that was recovered from the
silencer at the time?

24. A. I had an idea of what size of flake would be considered appropriate for
the number of blood grouping tests that had been attempted and I had the
opportunity then to ask questions of Mr Hayward.

25. Q. Did you come away with an impression firstly of the size of the flake?

26. A. Yes, I did. Those two pieces of information lead me to believe that it might
have been a flake of perhaps a quarter of an inch across.

27. MR JUSTICE WRIGHT: How much across?

28. A. About a quarter of an inch across. A flake smaller than that, I do not think
scientists would have attempted the battery of blood grouping tests that
were ultimately attempted. I think you would be looking at a flake that size.

29. MR JUSTICE WRIGHT: So that is a minimum of a quarter of an inch, is it?

30. A. Yes. I think if it was any larger, it would not have come out of the
(inaudible).

31. MR TURNER: For the sake of completeness, was it your understanding
whether any notes taken at the time of Dr Hayward's testing of this flake
were as to the size of the flake?

32. A. I have seen the notes, or rather copies of them. There is no indication as to
the size of the flake.


33. Q. Okay. So that is your impression.

Offline Caroline

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #191 on: April 02, 2016, 12:44:03 AM »
Caroline/Scipio

You have both said the size of the flake apparently found inside the silencer is unknown/guessed at.  So unlike Glynis who made a drawing of the outside of the silencer with an indication of the size of blood stains along with their location no one drew the inside of the silencer with similar information?  Is that correct?  Is that what you're saying?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7083.msg317631#msg317631

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7083.msg318033#msg318033

I believe that Hayward did say he did drawings - I've read it recently, will try and find it.

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #192 on: April 02, 2016, 01:39:24 AM »
I believe that Hayward did say he did drawings - I've read it recently, will try and find it.

On blue very little was posted directly from Hayward. There was a short statement only as far as I remember. Most of his claims had to be pieced together from what Lincoln and others reported that he told them. I once asked Mike to post his testimony but Mike never posts what people ask for...

“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Caroline

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #193 on: April 02, 2016, 02:05:54 AM »
On blue very little was posted directly from Hayward. There was a short statement only as far as I remember. Most of his claims had to be pieced together from what Lincoln and others reported that he told them. I once asked Mike to post his testimony but Mike never posts what people ask for...

Don't think I read it on the forum Scip. Hopefully I have saved it somewhere.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Cyanoacrylate (Superglue) Fuming Chamber And The Blood Flake
« Reply #194 on: April 02, 2016, 05:15:58 PM »
Don't think I read it on the forum Scip. Hopefully I have saved it somewhere.

Thanks for looking Caro.  Do lets us know if it turns up.   
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 05:18:23 PM by Holly Goodhead »
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?