"Charity collectors" data

[Brietta]

The collectors were describing a genuine charity which helps orphanages, and had done preparation by printing out photos and learning its history and offering receipts. But someone who helps run that charity said they don't do door-to-door collections. So there is a possibility the collectors might have been bogus keeping the donations for themselves.

However IMO the burglar(s) who opened this child's bedroom window and shutter, unintentionally triggering an accident IMO, were just petty burglar(s) nothing to do with any bogus charity collectors.

You are of the opinion that they are two entities.  It is possible, but until they are traced and eliminated we can't know for sure if they were part of the same team.
At this remove I doubt that will happen.

Whatever; I am absolutely unconvinced that Madeleine met with a fatal accident within the apartment - it is a theory which can only be sustained if an explanation can be found to explain the lack of a body let alone evidence that an accident occurred.

Why would her parents remove her body if as you think no entry was made by an intruder? [/list]

[pegasus]

You are of the opinion that they are two entities.  It is possible, but until they are traced and eliminated we can't know for sure if they were part of the same team.
At this remove I doubt that will happen.

Whatever; I am absolutely unconvinced that Madeleine met with a fatal accident within the apartment - it is a theory which can only be sustained if an explanation can be found to explain the lack of a body let alone evidence that an accident occurred.

Why would her parents remove her body if as you think no entry was made by an intruder? [/list]

IMO the person(s) who opened the shutter and window did not disappear the child Brietta. IMO they only triggered the child to leave that room and go at least to another room. I certainly would leave the room PDQ if a burglar opened my bedroom shutter and window. A second "entity" may be unnecessary, for example if that triggered going outside there is then the possibility of disappearance with no other person involved.

[Brietta]

IMO the person(s) who opened the shutter and window did not disappear the child Brietta. IMO they only triggered the child to leave that room and go at least to another room. I certainly would leave the room PDQ if a burglar opened my bedroom shutter and window. A second "entity" may be unnecessary, for example if that triggered going outside there is then the possibility of disappearance with no other person involved.

There is no evidence that Madeleine left the apartment of her own volition and had she done so why would she have vanished without trace?[/list]

[pegasus]

There is no evidence that Madeleine left the apartment of her own volition and had she done so why would she have vanished without trace?[/list]

But also there is no evidence that the child did not leave the apartment of her own volition. For example she could easily have walked out the wooden door or out the lounge glass door. Subjective opinions such as "I don't think a child would close a door behind them" are insufficient to rule this out IMO.

[Alfred R Jones]

But also there is no evidence that the child did not leave the apartment of her own volition. For example she could easily have walked out the wooden door or out the lounge glass door. Subjective opinions such as "I don't think a child would close a door behind them" are insufficient to rule this out IMO.

Your opinion that Madeleine would leave the house because of a burglar opening a window is pretty subjective in my book...[/list]

[Brietta]

But also there is no evidence that the child did not leave the apartment of her own volition. For example she could easily have walked out the wooden door or out the lounge glass door. Subjective opinions such as "I don't think a child would close a door behind them" are insufficient to rule this out IMO.

I doubt an adult would have the presence of mind to pull sliding door closed behind them if in a panic, Pegasus.  I am certain a child wouldn't.[/list]

[pegasus]

I doubt an adult would have the presence of mind to pull sliding door closed behind them if in a panic, Pegasus.  I am certain a child wouldn't.[/list]

If there is any possibility of wandering then it has to be investigated, regardless of subjective conjectures about whether a child or adult might close a door behind them or not. It's lucky the people out searching for almost 48 hours in the following case 6 months ago didn't rule out wandering just because it seemed unlikely http://bit.ly/25LvFag

[jassi]

Perhaps the sliding door wasn't fully closed and she squeezed through.

[pegasus]

Perhaps the sliding door wasn't fully closed and she squeezed through.

Yes Jassi, the glass door was left slightly open so that checkers could open it from outside because it has no handle outside. A small child would need to open it only a little more to slip out.

[mercury]

I doubt an adult would have the presence of mind to pull sliding door closed behind them if in a panic, Pegasus.  I am certain a child wouldn't.[/list]

Oh, but had the presence of mind to open wndows and shutters even though they used the front door with a borrowed or stolen OC key in order to fool police inspectors...but not in a panic then...yes ok

[Brietta]

Oh, but had the presence of mind to open wndows and shutters even though they used the front door with a borrowed or stolen OC key in order to fool police inspectors...but not in a panic then...yes ok

Pegasus has put forward a scenario in which the child is startled by the opening of the shutter and window and takes off in a panic in one direction while the burglar takes off in another direction having been startled and panicked by discovering the presence of a child.

I disagree that in those circumstances a panicked child would take time to close a door behind herself, particularly a sliding one.[/list]

[jassi]

We only have one person's statement (Matt ?) that he slid the door  to when he left. As he was lax in not viewing all the children, perhaps he was also lax in not shutting the door properly, but didn't like to admit it.

[Brietta]

We only have one person's statement (Matt ?) that he slid the door  to when he left. As he was lax in not viewing all the children, perhaps he was also lax in not shutting the door properly, but didn't like to admit it.

The question is not how easily the sliding patio door could be opened from the inside as elsewhere on the forum we have established that it slides open with ease.
In my opinion a child of Madeleine's age and size would probably not have had much of a problem with it.  Which rather lets Matt off the hook as there is no question that even if he had been "lax in not shutting the door properly" it would have been irrelevant.

However running away in a panic from danger I think it highly unlikely that anyone let alone a child would have taken time to close the door behind them before vaulting the child gate in an effort to escape.

[pegasus]

The question is not how easily the sliding patio door could be opened from the inside as elsewhere on the forum we have established that it slides open with ease.
In my opinion a child of Madeleine's age and size would probably not have had much of a problem with it.  Which rather lets Matt off the hook as there is no question that even if he had been "lax in not shutting the door properly" it would have been irrelevant.

However running away in a panic from danger I think it highly unlikely that anyone let alone a child would have taken time to close the door behind them before vaulting the child gate in an effort to escape.

If searchers in an Ohio case had said "nah don't bother looking it can't be wandering because I have a subjective opinion that a two-year old wouldn't shut a door behind her"  then you wouldn't be listening to this 911 call
http://bit.ly/1Vb6om0

[pegasus]

... and anyway a UK police document in the files states the child-gate was possibly observed open at 9.30pm.