Author Topic: Why Rivlin QC rightly told the jury to dismiss Julie Mugfords testimony  (Read 13389 times)

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Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Why Rivlin QC rightly told the jury to dismiss Julie Mugfords testimony
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2016, 10:11:44 PM »
Is it correct that David is not allowed to annonce details of his alleged discovery ?

This is apparently because it would 'give the crown more time to prepare'. This is suggesting the CCRC are biased against Bamber.

It's doubtful the CCRC read forums. If this alleged discovery does make it into a CCRC application in 5 or 10 years time, they would still have months or weeks to look at it.

Mike is always making annoncements about new evidence which hasn't been included in previous appeals.

In the unlikely event that the alleged discovery is good and does eventually end up with Bamber, it is likely there will be a press anoncement. They were not slow in coming forward regarding Sheila's feet and Neville's call.

The defense can't bar David from releasing his theory to the board. David said that he doesn't want to post the information because he fears the crown will see it and then explore ways to refute his claims before the defense even has time to get experts to assess whether his claims have any merit. 

A) It is absurd to think that the government is monitoring blue and here to test claims set forth by us. The notion the government will be actively trying to test and refute claims made on the web is absurd.  The truth is that unless/until an application to the courts is made that the government will not attempt to do squat.

B) If his claims have merit then he should not only not fear people testing his claims but should welcome people testing his claims.  If they are legitimate then such testing will confirm as opposed to refute his claims.

When you try to keep arguments a secret to spring on opponents at the last minute it is because you fear they will be proven false if adequate time exists to test the claims and hope by denying time for adequate testing that you will prevent the truth from being revealed. Of course legal rules require the government being given time to prepare after a filing occurs and the filing itself will put the government on notice of the claims so the notion they will be able to ambush the government without allowing them any chance to test the claims is nonsense.


 
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

david1819

  • Guest
Re: Why Rivlin QC rightly told the jury to dismiss Julie Mugfords testimony
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2016, 10:14:51 PM »
David doesn't know how to do that. He posts childish insulting cartoons when he lacks the ability to substantively challenge claims and evidence that refute things he wish were true and if not permitted to do such then he simply will hide and post on the safety of blue where his fellow Jeremy supporters will placate and protect him instead of challenging his claims.

He is so biased is it easy to see why he won't reveal his supposed new evidence that Jeremy is innocent.  He only will take it to die hard Jeremy supporters who won' view it in an objective manner.

By his own admission he said he decided to not believe Julie from the outset.  Instead of looking at all the issue in an objective manner he went by his gut opinion.  He knew that would look bad if he simply admits it is his gut opinion he still goes by so looks for reasons to justify his decision.  The only thing he could come up with is insisting that Julie conspired with the family and police to present false claims implicating him.  He has decided that is what happened despite not having any evidence.  So he has made up evidence that suffices in his mind but objectively fails miserably.

When people present an objective criticism of his claims he flips out. How he views the evidence in this case and an objective person views it are very different.  For instance, in another thread he insisted that Julie took her claims from RWB's diary even though it was written after she was questioned so that is quite impossible.

In this thread he ignores that the press erroneously reported Sheila had been shot in bed but at the time Julie came forward the family knew Sheila had been found on the floor and pretends that they still thought she was killed in bed and got Julie to falsely claim that Jeremy told her Sheila had been shot in bed. He ignores the press reported it and wants to pretend it had to come from the family because no one else thought that. Worse he ignores the family was told she was on the floor by mid August.  If Julie had made things up this would be evidence that tends to refute she wasn't conspiring with the family or police in making it up.

In this thread he also claims that Julie saying Jeremy told her Nevill was shot 7 times had to come from the family. Her full account is that there was a significant struggle where the killer blacked out for a minute but recovered to overcome Nevill and shot him 7 times. He totally ignores that this 7 shot figure was reported in the press and that is where not only she could have gotten it but Jeremy could have gotten it.  He ignores that Jeremy could have gotten it from the press or even could have told her 8 but she failed to remember this and the figure reported in the press stuck in her mind. Quite obviously she was not conspiring with police because if police were driving her statement they would have ensured all the details matched the crime to the letter.

Too that end he totally ignores that there was no reason for the family or police to prompt Julie to make up a hitman account and no reason for her to do so on her own.  The only one with a motive to do so is Jeremy. The hitman story served several purposes: 1) so Julie would not think he was as cold blooded as he actually was;  2) to threaten Julie that the hitman would get her if she talked and thus discourage her fro ratting him out; 3) if she did rat him out the police would find the account to be false and he would be in the clear because they would assume her accounts of him planning the murders were also false.

This is completely ignored and it pretended that there would be some reason for the other members of the conspiracy to get Julie to make up a hitman claim and even ID an innocent man as the hitman.  Naturally no reason is ever set forward and the issue not directly discussed because he can't come up with any reason why Julie or the others would want to make up a hitman.  Indeed, people out to blame Jeremy falsely would simply say he confessed to personally carrying out the murders.

Given how backwards David views everything in this case it is little wonder he is scared to publicly post his "breakthrough".  There is no doubt his breakthrough was come up with using the same biased goggles through which he looks at everything in this case and thus doesn't prove what he thinks.  He wants sycophants to review his evidence as opposed to people who would give honest objective review.

NGB is so ridiculous he stated he thinks it is possible Mike's claims are true about Sheila being shot in the kitchen and moved by police. He evoked such a strong reaction from Harters that he banned Harters for tearing into him so severely. Turning to someone like NGB for his opinion on the evidence is like asking a wolf if a chicken looks tasty. The way you test a theory is to have naysayers look at it and see if it can withstand them. If it can then you know you have something.

Your excuses for this women are beyond desperate. Her testimony is a result of coercion, I know it and you know it. But whether your going to admit it or not who knows.

Its remarkable how Jeremy's detailed "confession" Julie revealed on the 8th of September had no mention of a silencer. Maybe that's because the blood flake was discovered on the 12th of September hence police nor the relatives could have given her that information. The same silencer that DI Cook dismantled in August and never reported any blood! That would explain why DI Cooks 1991 COLP interview audio tape went "missing" or is that just another innocent mistake?

Offline Admin

Re: Why Rivlin QC rightly told the jury to dismiss Julie Mugfords testimony
« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2016, 10:16:51 PM »
David has probably been advised not to post his allegation as it could constitute a libel.

Am I correct?

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Why Rivlin QC rightly told the jury to dismiss Julie Mugfords testimony
« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2016, 11:16:24 PM »
Your excuses for this women are beyond desperate. Her testimony is a result of coercion, I know it and you know it. But whether your going to admit it or not who knows.

You have presented zero evidence of coercion.  You believe she was coerced simply because that fits in with the narrative you have decided to advance not because evidence establishes it happened.  You admitted long ago to me that you changed your mind in this case not because of evidence but because of a very stupid subjective reason. You said you spoke to lawyers who believe Jeremy would not be convicted based upon the same evidence if he were tried today. Their subjective unsupported opinion that he would not be convicted is what you claimed convinced you he was innocent.  You approach this case from a very emotional standpoint not a logical one.

I don't believe Julie was coerced because there is no evidence to suggest she was and furthermore there is evidence that establishes she wasn't.

Evidence establishes that she stated her claims to a friend BEFORE she spoke to police, that this friend went to the police and that this is why police questioned Julie.  You have presented no evidence of any kind that establishes the police went to Julie and put pressure on her to make up stories and then told her and the friend to support the lie that the friend went to police and this is why police questioned her.

You have failed to identify any pressure the police could use to even try to force Julie to lie for them. What could they do to her how could they threaten her if she didn't lie for them?  You don't even think about it you just make up it happened. They had no evidence that she had committed any crimes or anything they could use as leverage to coerce her.

The best anyone can make up is to suggest that police convinced Julie he was guilty and going to get away with murder so begged her to lie in order to help them nab him.  No one has any evidence whatsoever that anyone put their career on the line to solicit her to lie let alone that agreed to do so.

What I know is that if police had convinced Julie to lie that they would have had her say that Jeremy told her he committed the murders they would not have her make up a hitman account. If they were the ones behind it they also would have made sure all the details he told her matched what happened to the letter of what the evidence established.  They would have had her say he told her he shot Nevill 8 times not 7.  They would have had her say he admitted he shot Nevill in the bedroom and then shot him again in the kitchen. The inaccurate details you point to REFUTE your argument that police coerced her and establish they didn't. They would not coerce her to say such things. 

You attack Mike and profess that you are evidence based while he isn't but you advance many of the same things he does, you only reject a few of his most outrageous claims like that police shot her in the kitchen and moved her body.  Rejecting such doesn't make one rational and evidence based indeed you support the nonsense about there being multiple moderators that were doctored and this is why there were multiple exhibit numbers for Nevill's moderator. 

You approach the case in the same biased way Mike does. It is Mikesque to claim police would coerce Julie to make up a hitman who police would easily be able to prove was not involved.  It is Miekesque to claim police would coerce her to say confessed but to feed her false details to which he confessed to.

I believe Jeremy is guilty as sin and I KNOW that the evidence establishes he is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.  I believe Julie told the truth and that the moderator evidence was not doctored. I KNOW that no one has come up with any evidence to prove Julie lied or any evidence to prove the moderator evidence was doctored.
I also KNOW that you decided Jeremy was innocent without reviewing the evidence but rather based on your gut feelings and beliefs of others and after making such decision you then decided to review the evidence to see how you can look for ways to twist the evidence to pretend it supports your view.  In contrast I followed the evidence where it leads and after reviewing everything decided Jeremy is indeed guilty.

Let's just look at an argument which illustrates how different we operate.  You argued that Jeapes saw a rifle in the bedroom window and a crime scene photo confirms it was in that location at the time of the raid.  The photo that shows the murder weapon near the window was taken after the photos where it was seen on Sheila's body.  How could this confirm it had been in the window at the time of the raid?  Moreover, evidence proves that Jeapes was looking in the boxroom window not the bedroom window.  Countless times this was pointed out to you and countless times you ignored it.  In the meantime all Jeapes said was that she saw something in the boxroom window that appeared to be the barrel of a gun sticking up like would be the case if it had been leaning on a window sill.  She wasn't positive that it was a rifle barrel it could have been a tip of a broomstick for all she knew or a reflection. In any event it was a different room. She said this more than a month later not contemporaneously which casts even more doubt on it. But even if she did see something that appeared to be the tip of a rifle in the boxroom window but chose not to tell anyone because she wasn't sure, clearly whatever it was that she saw wasn't a rifle because no rifle was found in the boxroom let alone near the window. Instead of facing this reality you continued suggesting a rifle had been in he master bedroom window and that she saw it.   

I face reality and follow evidence where it leads while like Mike you make mountains out of molehills.


Its remarkable how Jeremy's detailed "confession" Julie revealed on the 8th of September had no mention of a silencer. Maybe that's because the blood flake was discovered on the 12th of September hence police nor the relatives could have given her that information. The same silencer that DI Cook dismantled in August and never reported any blood! That would explain why DI Cooks 1991 COLP interview audio tape went "missing" or is that just another innocent mistake?

1) Thank you for proving yet again how you post the same false claims Mike does.  Mike made up that Cook took the moderator apart in August.  There are no documents of any kind that suggest Cook ever took the moderator apart let alone did so in August. Nor is there any testimonial evidence of any kind that suggests such. Mike took a photocopy of a photo showing the moderator disassembled and wrote a date on it. He then claimed because this date was written on it this proves it was taken on such date.  You are the one who falls for nonsense not me. How funny it would be if this lie formed part of your breakthrough.

2) Julie said that Jeremy failed to provide her a detailed account of how the murders were committed. She said that he only told her a few details. Your claim that she said he gave a very detailed confession is patently false. Since he didn't give her much detail he didn't mention the moderator.  If police were forcing her to lie then they would have had her lie about him saying he used the moderator. Blood was found on and inside it August 13th.  They had suspicions it was used in the murders at that time but didn't think it mattered much if it was used.  They didn't really think through how ridiculous it would be for Sheila to use it then put it away before killing herself. Even though such would be ridiculous the defense argued that is what happened. The significance of the flake is that such proved it was attached when Sheila was killed which makes it impossible for her to have killed herself.  If the flake is subtracted then impossible changes back to ridiculous.   

« Last Edit: April 08, 2016, 01:16:47 AM by scipio_usmc »
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

david1819

  • Guest
Re: Why Rivlin QC rightly told the jury to dismiss Julie Mugfords testimony
« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2016, 11:28:36 PM »
David has probably been advised not to post his allegation as it could constitute a libel.

Am I correct?

I have been told that I should not release the info, As it will give the crown more time to prepare for having to refute it. That is the advice I have been given, If Scipio wants to believe its some excuse I have made up that's fine because I really couldn't give a dam. 

I have direct evidence incriminating Sheila. I have been told by a press agent it could be worth thousands if I am prepared to give it to them. So believe me I am very tempted! it could come out sooner than you think

I can understand why people wont believe me, but my claims are genuine.

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Why Rivlin QC rightly told the jury to dismiss Julie Mugfords testimony
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2016, 12:11:49 AM »
I have been told that I should not release the info, As it will give the crown more time to prepare for having to refute it. That is the advice I have been given, If Scipio wants to believe its some excuse I have made up that's fine because I really couldn't give a dam. 

I have direct evidence incriminating Sheila. I have been told by a press agent it could be worth thousands if I am prepared to give it to them. So believe me I am very tempted! it could come out sooner than you think

I can understand why people wont believe me, but my claims are genuine.

1) If you claims are accurate then it doesn't matte rhow much time the crown has to prepare they won't be able to refute your claims.  If they are untrue though then naturally you will want them to have the least possible amount of time to prepare.  So it is quite clear you have little confidence in your claims if you fear the crown will disprove them given enough time.

2) The notion the Crown is trolling this site and blue for theories so they can then take action to refute them is nonsense. The crown will not take action until the argument is advanced in a legal setting. That is the only time they will bother to take notice.

3) Your claim you have proof that Sheila committed the murders is beyond laughable you the same person who said you have absolute proof that Julie lied about Jeremy telling her what you claimed and your supposed proof proved nothing you claimed. You also just repeated Mike's lie about Cook taking apart the moderator in August.  You have a history of claiming things prove something they objectively do not. As such I won't hold my breath...
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

david1819

  • Guest
Re: Why Rivlin QC rightly told the jury to dismiss Julie Mugfords testimony
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2016, 12:24:48 AM »
3) Your claim you have proof that Sheila committed the murders is beyond laughable


I agree it is beyond laughable, and I cannot blame you for feeling that way. But I am not making this up.

The state can always claim JB set up what I have discovered but the argument is just not credible.

What's even more laughable is that of all people I have noticed what the authorities should have noticed decades ago.

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Why Rivlin QC rightly told the jury to dismiss Julie Mugfords testimony
« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2016, 12:53:31 AM »

I agree it is beyond laughable, and I cannot blame you for feeling that way. But I am not making this up.

The state can always claim JB set up what I have discovered but the argument is just not credible.

What's even more laughable is that of all people I have noticed what the authorities should have noticed decades ago.

If you are not scared of it being disproved then PM me what the argument is. I will give you a private critique. I won't steal it to try to make money off it myself and won't publish it on the web. Of course if you can't handle honest criticism then it would be pointless because I'm not a sycophant and if it is crap I am going to say so and explain why.

Based on what NGB wrote I initially had some suspicions that you blew up some photos of Sheila and think you see a muzzle imprint consistent with the front of the rifle sans moderator but there are many possibilities of what you can think you found.

“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline adam

Re: Why Rivlin QC rightly told the jury to dismiss Julie Mugfords testimony
« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2016, 02:55:05 AM »
The defense can't bar David from releasing his theory to the board. David said that he doesn't want to post the information because he fears the crown will see it and then explore ways to refute his claims before the defense even has time to get experts to assess whether his claims have any merit. 

A) It is absurd to think that the government is monitoring blue and here to test claims set forth by us. The notion the government will be actively trying to test and refute claims made on the web is absurd.  The truth is that unless/until an application to the courts is made that the government will not attempt to do squat.

B) If his claims have merit then he should not only not fear people testing his claims but should welcome people testing his claims.  If they are legitimate then such testing will confirm as opposed to refute his claims.

When you try to keep arguments a secret to spring on opponents at the last minute it is because you fear they will be proven false if adequate time exists to test the claims and hope by denying time for adequate testing that you will prevent the truth from being revealed. Of course legal rules require the government being given time to prepare after a filing occurs and the filing itself will put the government on notice of the claims so the notion they will be able to ambush the government without allowing them any chance to test the claims is nonsense.


 

David has obviously decided to be a supporter.

He did say twice he was going to post an account of how Sheila committed the massacre. The second time in 2015, when he said he wanted to delay it to 2016 to make it detailed. Dispite repeated requests it has not been posted.

He then claimed authors steal his ideas and gave an example. His example had already been mentioned in 2011 by a journalist and discussed on another forum.

As Holly said, this thread would have taken a long time to compile. But again it didn't make any impact. Neither did his claim that he had sent something to Andrew Hunter. To prevent himself just becoming another Mike/Lookout esq supporter he secretly seeked out approval from another supporter. NGB was happy to post one dipomatic post regarding David's alleged finding.

The reason for saying why the alleged finding cannot be discussed on a forum is incredibly weak. There are actually a lot of advantages of posting new ideas, theories and evidence on forums.  Which is why people do it.

If David has documents which have never been released before, maybe these should not be posted. However this is very doubtful. There is no reason why he should have priviledged documents or witness testimony. I did twice ask how he came up with this alleged discovery, but got stonewalled.

Hopefully David will PM his findings to you.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2016, 12:35:40 PM by adam »

Offline John

Re: Why Rivlin QC rightly told the jury to dismiss Julie Mugfords testimony
« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2016, 06:28:46 PM »
I'm afraid the moment David posted about selling his theory to the media all credibility was lost.  In all reality the evidence against Jeremy Bamber is substantial, the invented telephone call from Nevill and his attempt to blame Sheila from the moment he contacted the police have been his undoing.  It would take something of the highest order to see Bamber walk free.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2016, 06:32:42 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Eleanor

Re: Why Rivlin QC rightly told the jury to dismiss Julie Mugfords testimony
« Reply #25 on: April 08, 2016, 06:37:32 PM »

I am trying really hard to follow this, because I think there is a distinct possibility that Jeremy Bamber is Innocent.  But you are such an incestuous bunch that makes it difficult to get a word in edgeways without being insulted.  Or watching you all insulting each other.

Is there an Appeal in the offering?  And if so, on what grounds?

Offline sika

Re: Why Rivlin QC rightly told the jury to dismiss Julie Mugfords testimony
« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2016, 06:55:55 PM »
I am trying really hard to follow this, because I think there is a distinct possibility that Jeremy Bamber is Innocent.  But you are such an incestuous bunch that makes it difficult to get a word in edgeways without being insulted.  Or watching you all insulting each other.

Is there an Appeal in the offering?  And if so, on what grounds?
There is most definitely NOT an appeal in the offing.

Bambers supporters are really, very good at spreading propaganda. 

I'm not sure how much clearer the CCRC could have been, when dismissing Bambers case the last time round. 

That prat must have cost the tax payer a bloody fortune already.  The sooner he carks it, the better.

Offline Myster

Re: Why Rivlin QC rightly told the jury to dismiss Julie Mugfords testimony
« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2016, 07:05:51 PM »
I am trying really hard to follow this, because I think there is a distinct possibility that Jeremy Bamber is Innocent.  But you are such an incestuous bunch that makes it difficult to get a word in edgeways without being insulted.  Or watching you all insulting each other.

Is there an Appeal in the offering?  And if so, on what grounds?

I never insult anyone, other than an occasional dig at Holly... but that's a friendly kind of insultation.

None that I know of, but the CT will say anything to get spondulix for the quid pro quos reeling in.

Have a look at the CS photo of Sheila, Ellie.  Does she look as if she's been in a heated struggle with her badly wounded and heavily bleeding father?  Someone has run their thumb (or finger) twice from left to right over the upper wound. It certainly wasn't Sheila because that shot was instantaneously fatal (according to Dr.Vanezis, the pathologist).
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline Eleanor

Re: Why Rivlin QC rightly told the jury to dismiss Julie Mugfords testimony
« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2016, 07:30:54 PM »
There is most definitely NOT an appeal in the offing.

Bambers supporters are really, very good at spreading propaganda. 

I'm not sure how much clearer the CCRC could have been, when dismissing Bambers case the last time round. 

That prat must have cost the tax payer a bloody fortune already.  The sooner he carks it, the better.

Thank You.  I really didn't need to know that this how you feel. 
« Last Edit: April 08, 2016, 11:50:55 PM by Admin »

Offline Eleanor

Re: Why Rivlin QC rightly told the jury to dismiss Julie Mugfords testimony
« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2016, 08:02:08 PM »
I never insult anyone, other than an occasional dig at Holly... but that's a friendly kind of insultation.

None that I know of, but the CT will say anything to get spondulix for the quid pro quos reeling in.

Have a look at the CS photo of Sheila, Ellie.  Does she look as if she's been in a heated struggle with her badly wounded and heavily bleeding father?  Someone has run their thumb (or finger) twice from left to right over the upper wound. It certainly wasn't Sheila because that shot was instantaneously fatal (according to Dr.Vanezis, the pathologist).

I am quite prepared to listen to anything if it makes some sort of sense, Myster.  I just don't understand the anger.  Although I suppose I should, in the light of what else I do on this Board.

In the beginning of me on here, I really tried to get involved beyond The McCann Forum, and got really seriously shot back by Tim Invictus, with such vitriol that I just about bounced off the wall.  I have never quite recovered from that.

I am not actually a very brave person.  But I wouldn't like to think that Jeremy Bamber is innocent and still convicted.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2016, 11:52:04 PM by Admin »