Author Topic: Why Rivlin QC rightly told the jury to dismiss Julie Mugfords testimony  (Read 13365 times)

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Offline adam

Re: Why Rivlin QC rightly told the jury to dismiss Julie Mugfords testimony
« Reply #45 on: April 09, 2016, 10:01:36 PM »
Chapter 31, page 220 of Wilkes's book -

Julies mother Mary Mugford followed her daughter into the witness box.

She said 'Jeremy hated his mother & blamed her for turning Sheila mad. And he resented her for loving the twins more than him. Jeremy disliked his mother intensely & I felt he was more affectionate to me'.

'He used to call me mummy all the time. He offerred me his mothers small car which had been bought that Christmas. This was just after the shooting. A list had been drawn up and he was going to keep no momentoes, which I thought very strange. He wanted to sell everthing'.

'Jeremy resented his mother because she sent him away to boarding school. He never forgave her for that.

'Apparently she was a religious maniac'.

'A few months before the murders Jeremy had told me her mother was thinking of changing her will in favour of her grandsons, on whom she doted'.

'Jeremy never spoke to his mother & she never showed any affection towards him'.

'He often spoke of this'. 

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Why Rivlin QC rightly told the jury to dismiss Julie Mugfords testimony
« Reply #46 on: April 09, 2016, 10:03:19 PM »
Not just once, but two or three times... and "It really did sound like hate!", said James Richards when cross-examined.

How does that square with the recent sycophantic graveside eulogy?   Much too late to make amends, methinks.

Well lets not forget James Richard was a friend/housemate of JM's.  But perhaps more importantly SB does say in her WS that she did not like JB and JM having drugs in the house as James (Jim) and Charles (not Marsden) were attached to the army and if the army discovered they were in a house with drugs they might get kicked out.  I believe EP were bugging all phones and properties and used this sort of thing to their advantage.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=529.0;attach=1655;image

There were also many other witnesses that said they never heard JB talk ill of his parents such as various business associates that visited the farm, Jean Boutell, the housekeeper, and JB's former girlfriend Suzette Ford. 

It's also worth remembering that SC discussed morbid/disturbing thoughts with Dr F regarding the twins and June which I find far more compelling than random sentences from prosecution witnesses who JB was only acquainted with and may have had their own agendas.  During that era the police were known to pile on the pressure to get whatever result they wanted whether it was a confession from a suspect or false testimony from witnesses.

The graveside eulogy was completely inappropriate regardless of whose idea it was.  JB said he will always love his sister but this hasn't always been the case as he is on record as saying at times he has hated SC but hate/anger give you lines around the eyes.  I will try and dig it out.  I think it is kosher.  If you're innocent it is surely a natural reaction?  Is it possible to have such intense feelings for people 30 years after their demise?  Maybe it is in his situation ie if he's innocent and was unable to grieve at the time.  But all the Walton/Little House On The Prairie stuff about Easter egg hunts etc is again inappropriate imo and it makes me wonder about those close to him that advise/discuss these things with him and upload to blogs etc.  I suppose if his conviction is ever quashed it will stand as some sort of record.  Frankly I just find the whole thing cringworthy.  There again I guess if he just focused on his case some would accuse him of being selfish for not remembering his family.

Do other UK prisones have websites, blogs, CT's etc?

I'm in serious danger of having to take myself in hand for going off  topic!  Right off to the local for two halves of Peroni followed by a curry with maybe a glass of wine or two!
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Why Rivlin QC rightly told the jury to dismiss Julie Mugfords testimony
« Reply #47 on: April 09, 2016, 10:09:07 PM »
Chapter 31, page 220 of Wilkes's book -

Julies mother Mary Mugford followed her daughter into the witness box.

She said 'Jeremy hated his mother & blamed her for turning Sheila mad. And he resented her for loving the twins more than him. Jeremy disliked his mother intensely & I felt he was more affectionate to me'.

'He used to call me mummy all the time. He offerred me his mothers small car which had been bought that Christmas. This was just after the shooting. A list had been drawn up and he was going to keep no momentoes, which I thought very strange. He wanted to sell everthing'.

'Jeremy resented his mother because she sent him away to boarding school. He never forgave her for that.

'Apparently she was a religious maniac'.

'A few months before the murders Jeremy had told me her mother was thinking of changing her will in favour of her grandsons, on whom she doted'.

'Jeremy never spoke to his mother & she never showed any affection towards him'.

'He often spoke of this'.

And in CAL's book MM (the name Mary Mugford reminds me of my fave child prog Mary, Mungo and Midge) states she liked JB and he was accepted by the family.  If she had bad vibes about him she would surely have tried to steer her daughter away from him but there's no evidence she did.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU8pByfrk2M

Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline adam

Re: Why Rivlin QC rightly told the jury to dismiss Julie Mugfords testimony
« Reply #48 on: April 09, 2016, 10:27:41 PM »
And in CAL's book MM (the name Mary Mugford reminds me of my fave child prog Mary, Mungo and Midge) states she liked JB and he was accepted by the family.  If she had bad vibes about him she would surely have tried to steer her daughter away from him but there's no evidence she did.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU8pByfrk2M

MM liking Bamber does not contradict him telling her of his hatred of June. It supports it, as it shows Bamber liked MM enough to confide in her.  Bamber testified he agreed with what MM said in court. 

Why would MM try to steer Julie away from Bamber ? He never told MM he was planning to massacre his family.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2016, 10:36:58 PM by adam »

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Why Rivlin QC rightly told the jury to dismiss Julie Mugfords testimony
« Reply #49 on: April 10, 2016, 02:25:01 AM »
Why is David Connett's opinion any more subjective than yours?  He actually heard JM testify in court.  He found her testimony unreliable and for all we know jurors may have thought similar.

He provides no rational reasoning for his opinion. He provided no rational basis for any of his opinions on this case.  He said that he felt Jeremy was guilty because he was cocky. A ration person would believe he was guilty because of the evidence.  He chose to disbelieve all the evidence.  He didn't provide any rational why he disbelieved the evidence he simply said he did. So we have someone who just uses gut instinct to ignore all the evidence and decide it was all fraudulent and thus to declare Jeremy not proven guilty but to believe he was guilty anymore for an irrational reason.   

My opinions in this case are based on evidence and logic not ignoring evidence and logic and just deciding to believe things for the hell of it.

Someone who wants to establish Julie lied needs to come up with a reason for her to make up what she did.  There is no motive that makes any sense for her to decide to want him jailed for the rest of his life and even if one could make up something far fetched in that regard, if she were going to lie she would say he admitted to her that he did it himself not make up a hitman and the long tale of him planning this for ages first considering fire.

Many different elements of her story are supported by extraneous evidence in the meantime including that Sheila didn't kill herself and that Nevill didn't call Jeremy. Jeremy calling Julie before police most certainly supports her and confessing to things she had no need to confess to supports her telling the truth at that point.

There could be numerous reasons for JM to be economical with the truth.  Four female teenage prosecuction witnesses in the Stefan Kiszko case years later admitted "lying for a laugh".

There is nothing to suggest that Julie decided to make up a long involved tale to try to get him convicted for a laugh.   

In the following WS's JM states when DS Jones and DC Clarke left Bourtree Cottage on 7th Aug JB told her he arranged for MM to carry out the murders.  She then claims JB elaborated further and then went on to say they shouldn't talk about it in the house in case it was bugged!  And yet according to JM they had in fact done just that as the conversation took place in the lounge!  Why would JB incriminate himself if he thought the house was bugged?  This clearly makes no sense whatsover.  Why not say he pulled me in close and whispered....Or he said lets go for a walk/to the pub and he told me....

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=284.0;attach=1112

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=284.0;attach=1114

Anyway I don't propose to go round in circles discussing JM's testimony.  I've read the WS's numerous times and  as far as I am concerned I find her unreliable.  If that makes me bias etc then so be it.

It is rather obvious that Jeremy didn't want to elaborate further fearing he would give away that he carried out the murders himself if he went into too much detail and cut the conversation short with the fiction that it was not safe to talk about it further. If Julie wanted to make up a story all she had to do was say he admitted he did it but he refused to give her the play by play and get into the finer details. There was no need to make up that he mentioned a handful of details like the glove coming off and the boys being killed in their sleep but not too much else. 

 

“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Why Rivlin QC rightly told the jury to dismiss Julie Mugfords testimony
« Reply #50 on: April 11, 2016, 08:26:56 AM »
MM liking Bamber does not contradict him telling her of his hatred of June. It supports it, as it shows Bamber liked MM enough to confide in her.  Bamber testified he agreed with what MM said in court. 

Why would MM try to steer Julie away from Bamber ? He never told MM he was planning to massacre his family.

JB never hid the fact he had a 'difficult' relationship with June.  In his police interviews he described it as "rough and smooth".

June seemed to have problems with the younger generation if they didn't share her world view especially with regard to religion and sexual morality.  I don't accept that this was how members of that generation were.  June was younger than my grandmothers and great aunts and older than my mum and aunts.  None of these women chastised younger members of the family for no doubt doing things differently eg having sex outside marriage.  They were not overly liberal minded in the sense that anything went but just accepted that times had changed.  And religion played no part in my family whatsoever.  Had it have done I would imagine people would just have gone to church done their thing end of story and not expected anyone else to share their views.

June's relationship with the likes of her nieces and nephews seemed ok but with SC, JB, CC, JM, and others it appeared difficult.  Friends of SC's and JB's also said the same such as Tora Tompkins and Brett Collins ie that they found June 'difficult'.

If MM had reservations about JB in terms of all the stuff we hear eg cocky, arrogant, greedy, womaniser, lazy etc, etc she surely would have made her views known to her daughter.  MM seemed to endorse the relationship.

I will always maintain June was totally unsuitable to adopt.  In an era when babies were in the main adopted due to societal stigma attached to illegitimacy June's chastising and proselytising to her adopted children conceived outside marriage (a sin in June's eyes) was a recipe for disaster.   JB was able to dismiss it but sadly SC took it to heart and the consequences for all resulted in disaster. 

As MM said JB would go weeks without speaking to June.  Sadly SC she did not have the wherewithal to take this approach or similar and took all June's criticisms to heart which imo manifested in her mental illness.   

 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Myster

Re: Why Rivlin QC rightly told the jury to dismiss Julie Mugfords testimony
« Reply #51 on: April 11, 2016, 08:38:00 AM »
MM saw Dr Jekyll  ?{)(** ... June saw Mr Hyde  ?8)@)-)
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Why Rivlin QC rightly told the jury to dismiss Julie Mugfords testimony
« Reply #52 on: April 11, 2016, 09:44:42 AM »
He provides no rational reasoning for his opinion. He provided no rational basis for any of his opinions on this case.  He said that he felt Jeremy was guilty because he was cocky. A ration person would believe he was guilty because of the evidence.  He chose to disbelieve all the evidence.  He didn't provide any rational why he disbelieved the evidence he simply said he did. So we have someone who just uses gut instinct to ignore all the evidence and decide it was all fraudulent and thus to declare Jeremy not proven guilty but to believe he was guilty anymore for an irrational reason.

I'm sure he did provide a rational basis for his opinion when he attended trial and produced his column inches.  The article is a summary of his recollections:

- He would not have convicted JB on the evidence he heard (although he admits he did not attend every day of the trial).

- Despite the above he thought JB guilty based on it appears spurious reasons as you have stated.

- He thought JM's testimony had too many inconsistencies to be relied upon.

Unlike posters on internet forums journalists are not given carte blanche by their editors to write war and peace when the mood takes!   8(0(* @)(++(* 8((()*/ 

My opinions in this case are based on evidence and logic not ignoring evidence and logic and just deciding to believe things for the hell of it.

Really?  Please see below  &%+((£

Someone who wants to establish Julie lied needs to come up with a reason for her to make up what she did.  There is no motive that makes any sense for her to decide to want him jailed for the rest of his life and even if one could make up something far fetched in that regard, if she were going to lie she would say he admitted to her that he did it himself not make up a hitman and the long tale of him planning this for ages first considering fire.

Many different elements of her story are supported by extraneous evidence in the meantime including that Sheila didn't kill herself and that Nevill didn't call Jeremy. Jeremy calling Julie before police most certainly supports her and confessing to things she had no need to confess to supports her telling the truth at that point.

There is nothing to suggest that Julie decided to make up a long involved tale to try to get him convicted for a laugh.   

It is rather obvious that Jeremy didn't want to elaborate further fearing he would give away that he carried out the murders himself if he went into too much detail and cut the conversation short with the fiction that it was not safe to talk about it further. If Julie wanted to make up a story all she had to do was say he admitted he did it but he refused to give her the play by play and get into the finer details. There was no need to make up that he mentioned a handful of details like the glove coming off and the boys being killed in their sleep but not too much else.

You seem to think human behaviour is logical and rational.  It  isn't.  There could be numerous reasons why JM was economical with the truth.  I gave the example of how the four prosecution witnesses in the Stefan Kiszko case "lied for a laugh" to show how wide ranging the reasons can be.  I'm not suggesting JM lied for a laugh.  I believe JM was put under enormous pressure by the police and cracked.   Similar to how Amanda Knox did with Patrick Lumumba.  PL had a cast iron alibi JB didn't.  When the police apply brutal interviewing techniques to young women who have no legal representation they are left in a vulnerable position.  JM was no doubt brainwashed by EP into thinking JB was responsible.  EP told JB during his interviews SC was murdered as she could not have shot herself twice despite the pathologist stating otherwise.  If JM was told similar lies EP no doubt brainwashed her into thinking JB was responsible.  There's evidence to suggest JM wasn't mentally strong around that time as indicated by the need to take sleeping tablets to cope with her teacher training.

There's nothing in her "story" supported by extraneous evidence.  It was all passed to her by EP cobbled  together by EP and the relatives.

According to JM JB did elaborate further.  JM said JB explained in detail at Bourtree Cottage on 7th Aug how he had arranged for MM to carry out the murders.  He then added they should not talk about it in the house in case it was bugged!  If JB thought the house was bugged why would he explain in detail how he arranged for MM to carry out the murders thus incriminating himself?

"About 8.30pm the same day DS JONES and DC CLARKE left the house leaving Jeremy and myself alone.  We went and sat in the lounge and I think the first thing Jeremy said was that he was glad the day was over.  I then said to Jeremy "Did you do it".  He said, "No I couldn't have done it, Matthew did it".  I knew to whom he was referring.  He said that before he had phoned me that morning Matthew had phoned from the house, which I took to be the farm, and said that everything had been completed and proceeded to tell him about his father who he stated that for his age he was very strong and had put up a fight.  He said that Mathhew had said he was sorry because during the fight with his father he had had a mental blank and had fired 7 shots into him. I asked Jerry if the twins and Sheila had felt anything and he  said the boys were still asleep and didn't wake up and that Sheila had lay down on the bed and shot herself under the orders of Matthew who put a bible on her chest.  He told me that he had told Matthew where the gun was going to be, how to get into the house.  He had found out what bedroom they had all been sleeping in as Sheila and the twins frequently slept in different rooms when they visited the farm,  He also told Matthew how to leave the house so it appeared locked, and the route back to Goldhanger.  I asked how much he paid Matthew and he said "£2,000".  Jeremy said that when Matthew phoned him from the hose he told him that he was going out of the country and it would be in both their interest if Jeremy didn't know where he had gone.  I did mention to Jeremy where he could get £2,000 as I knew he hadn't got it.  Jeremy told me that he had to find a way of getting it without the police finding out or the accountant.  I forgot to tell you about the phone in the house.  When Jeremy changed his plan from burning the house down to shooting the family, he told me that he was going to make it look as if Sheila was responsible and the grounds would be that she was mad having been in a mental hospital.  He also told me that there would be a phone call made from the house because the last phone call made would be recorded.  He said the call would be made=made from the White House to his house.  He didn't say who would  =make it or why.  I know there was portable phone in the house with a memory key which when pressed would phone back to the last number called.  The conversation regarding the phone took place when he changed his plan in April time this year.  I would like to add that the conversation I had with Jeremy the day the police were at the house on Wednesday 7th August 1985 might not be in the correct order of speech.  DURING THIS CONVERSATION JEREMY DID TELL ME THAT WE SHOULD NOT TALK ABOUT IT IN THE HOUSE IN CASE THE HOUSE WAS BEING BUGGED"

But hang on a minute Julie, according to you JB has just fessed up about how he arranged for MM to carry out the murders and yet according to you he also believed the house was bugged thus incriminating himself.  Isn't that what's commonly referred to as 'locking the stable door after the horse has bolted'? 

If some wish to treat JM as a credible prosecution witness that's up to them but they won't be convincing me she was anything other than unreliable.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=284.0;attach=1112

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=284.0;attach=1114
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Why Rivlin QC rightly told the jury to dismiss Julie Mugfords testimony
« Reply #53 on: April 11, 2016, 10:05:59 AM »
Julie told five people before going to the police. She didn't need to speak to the police.

The police couldn't bug all the places Julie went to. In the few days after she had split up with Bamber. Not sure if they allowed to anyway. She was not a suspect.

Bamber didn't mention Sheila's religious views. He had said enough, and left a bible out as a little something extra for the police.  He saved the 'religious maniac accusations for June.

With regard to listening devices I'm not sure where the law stood at the time.  I think now the police have to obtain a special warrant but I've no doubt it went on at the time regardless of where the law stood. 

EP visited JM's house to check the clocks so they had every opportunity then to plant listening devices.  They also broke into SC's flat and had access to Bourtree cottage so again every opportunity to plant further listening devices. 

The above provided useful intelligence gathering for the police and enabled them to manipulate witnesses.

JB was placed under surveillance so we know for a fact this sort of thing went on.  The fact JM refers to JB's cottage being bugged just fuels my suspicion.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Why Rivlin QC rightly told the jury to dismiss Julie Mugfords testimony
« Reply #54 on: April 11, 2016, 06:21:13 PM »
I'm sure he did provide a rational basis for his opinion when he attended trial and produced his column inches.  The article is a summary of his recollections:

- He would not have convicted JB on the evidence he heard (although he admits he did not attend every day of the trial).

- Despite the above he thought JB guilty based on it appears spurious reasons as you have stated.

- He thought JM's testimony had too many inconsistencies to be relied upon.

Unlike posters on internet forums journalists are not given carte blanche by their editors to write war and peace when the mood takes!   8(0(* @)(++(* 8((()*/ 

Really?  Please see below  &%+((£

His opinion that they failed to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt is his unsupported opinion nothing more. Unsupported opinion is never evidence to be relied upon but journalists in particular have a very poor track record.  Journalists are trained in communications not substantively trained in many subjects and often are horrible at grasping the key issues.

From a legal standpoint there is no question the evidence was sufficient to establish reasonable doubt.

From a legal standpoint and common sense there is no reason why Julie would make up the things she said even if she had wanted to punish Jeremy by getting him falsely convicted.  That is part and parcel of whether to believe someone.  He never exhibited any discussion of such issues.  He simply published his raw gut impressions which mean zilch to anyone rational and objective. 

The raw opinion of people means nothing at all it is a rationale and evidence set forth to support opinions which matter.  That he heard her speak doesn't mean his opinion of her is reliable. All it means is even greater opportunity to consider stupid things instead of actually looking at the claims she made.
 
You seem to think human behaviour is logical and rational.  It  isn't.  There could be numerous reasons why JM was economical with the truth.  I gave the example of how the four prosecution witnesses in the Stefan Kiszko case "lied for a laugh" to show how wide ranging the reasons can be.  I'm not suggesting JM lied for a laugh.  I believe JM was put under enormous pressure by the police and cracked.   Similar to how Amanda Knox did with Patrick Lumumba.  PL had a cast iron alibi JB didn't.  When the police apply brutal interviewing techniques to young women who have no legal representation they are left in a vulnerable position.  JM was no doubt brainwashed by EP into thinking JB was responsible.  EP told JB during his interviews SC was murdered as she could not have shot herself twice despite the pathologist stating otherwise.  If JM was told similar lies EP no doubt brainwashed her into thinking JB was responsible.  There's evidence to suggest JM wasn't mentally strong around that time as indicated by the need to take sleeping tablets to cope with her teacher training.

Your claims are totally illogical.  You spend your time making up possibilities that she lied without coming up with any evidence that actually suggests she did. Worse yet you ignore the facts when making such up.

1) You IGNORE that Julie told her story to Susan BEFORE she told it to police.  That right there refutes your notion that police confused her and got her to change her testimony because of their actions

2) You ignore the level of detail of her story which spans nearly a year prior to the murders. Police didn't put such in her head

3) You admit that Julie and police all knew that Jeremy had no alibi and thus police would have pressed Julie about whether Jeremy did it himself not invent a hitman story and similarly Julie would have no reason on her own to admit a hitman story.

Knox was being grilled by police as a suspect while Julie was not. Police had text messages between Lumumba and Knox and insisted to Knox that her text of see you later meant that she planned to meet him and insisted he met up with her.  They interviewed her in the middle of the night, confused her, questioned her in a language she barely knew and told her to imagine what happened when he met up with her. Hours after they pressured her she REVOKED her statement and told them it was false. Trying to suggest this could help prove Julie lied for similar reasons but instead of immediately revoking it like Knox maintained it to this day and testified to such at a trial fails miserably.

Julie was not a suspect like Knox.  Julie was not treated as a suspect.  Julie told her story before she spoke with police. Police initially didn't believe Julie. In the meantime you ignore that Jeremy had no alibi so police and Julie had no reason to try implicating someone else. Police had no evidence of any sort against MacDonald. There were no text messages or other contact between Jeremy and MacDonald (analogous to those between Knox and Lumumba) that would make police suggest to Julie that MacDonald had been involved. There is nothing remotely similar.  You constantly attempt to draw false comparisons between things that are not even remotely similar.

Three 13 year old girls in the Kiszko case claimed the defendant had exposed himself to them. That hardly was direct evidence of his guilt.  When adults they recanted and said they lied. Julie was not a 13 year old girl she was an adult. Julie did not come out with a simply claim she proved a long detailed account that would have taken quite a while to make up. The things she claimed are not things that would be made up by someone who wanted to get Jeremy in trouble.  She would have made up that he confessed himself to committing the crimes not finger a hitman who in short order could prove the claim false. 

You want us to ignore evidence and logic and simply to believe that either police prompted her to finger  a hitman or she made such up on her own to get Jeremy in trouble though neither police nor Julie would have a reason to conjure such up.  That is what a biased person does.  A biased person decides they want to believe something regardless of evidence and logic.  You decided to believe Jeremy is innocent and in order for him to be innocent Julie had to have lied and this alone is why you suggest she lied.

I prefer to look at the claims in great detail. The claims of Jeremy expressing desire to kill his family are very detailed over the course of many months. This cuts against the notion such were simply made up suddenly.  She admitted to various wrongdoing which she had no need to admit to. This cuts in favor of her telling the truth.  If she were going to lie she would not have made up a hitman but would have said Jeremy admitted to committing the murders himself.  The hitman story is something only Jeremy would make up and thus cuts in favor of her telling the truth.  The fact Jeremy called her right after the murders before even calling police supports that she was telling the truth.

You are desperate to establish she lied but can't.  You can't establish she lied with any evidence so instead invoke unsupported opinion of others who don't believe her as if their unsupported opinions mean squat. You admit humans can be irrational and yet say he must have a good reason for his belief because he is a journalist. 

You bring up 2 scenarios where witnesses recanted- one recanted within hours and yet police ran with it anyway while in the other scenario the recanting occurred many years later.  Here there was no recanting period.  The testimony here was much more complex, much more detailed and directly implicates the defendant in the planning stage.  His admission of being responsible after isn't really significant. It is her testimony regarding the planning that is significant as well as the evidence that right after the murders that he phoned her before police.  The notion he planned to murder them and frame Sheila but didn't have to because Sheila went crazy and killed them for real is not the least bit credible.
 
There's nothing in her "story" supported by extraneous evidence.  It was all passed to her by EP cobbled  together by EP and the relatives.

According to JM JB did elaborate further.  JM said JB explained in detail at Bourtree Cottage on 7th Aug how he had arranged for MM to carry out the murders.  He then added they should not talk about it in the house in case it was bugged!  If JB thought the house was bugged why would he explain in detail how he arranged for MM to carry out the murders thus incriminating himself?

"About 8.30pm the same day DS JONES and DC CLARKE left the house leaving Jeremy and myself alone.  We went and sat in the lounge and I think the first thing Jeremy said was that he was glad the day was over.  I then said to Jeremy "Did you do it".  He said, "No I couldn't have done it, Matthew did it".  I knew to whom he was referring.  He said that before he had phoned me that morning Matthew had phoned from the house, which I took to be the farm, and said that everything had been completed and proceeded to tell him about his father who he stated that for his age he was very strong and had put up a fight.  He said that Mathhew had said he was sorry because during the fight with his father he had had a mental blank and had fired 7 shots into him. I asked Jerry if the twins and Sheila had felt anything and he  said the boys were still asleep and didn't wake up and that Sheila had lay down on the bed and shot herself under the orders of Matthew who put a bible on her chest.  He told me that he had told Matthew where the gun was going to be, how to get into the house.  He had found out what bedroom they had all been sleeping in as Sheila and the twins frequently slept in different rooms when they visited the farm,  He also told Matthew how to leave the house so it appeared locked, and the route back to Goldhanger.  I asked how much he paid Matthew and he said "£2,000".  Jeremy said that when Matthew phoned him from the hose he told him that he was going out of the country and it would be in both their interest if Jeremy didn't know where he had gone.  I did mention to Jeremy where he could get £2,000 as I knew he hadn't got it.  Jeremy told me that he had to find a way of getting it without the police finding out or the accountant.  I forgot to tell you about the phone in the house.  When Jeremy changed his plan from burning the house down to shooting the family, he told me that he was going to make it look as if Sheila was responsible and the grounds would be that she was mad having been in a mental hospital.  He also told me that there would be a phone call made from the house because the last phone call made would be recorded.  He said the call would be made=made from the White House to his house.  He didn't say who would  =make it or why.  I know there was portable phone in the house with a memory key which when pressed would phone back to the last number called.  The conversation regarding the phone took place when he changed his plan in April time this year.  I would like to add that the conversation I had with Jeremy the day the police were at the house on Wednesday 7th August 1985 might not be in the correct order of speech.  DURING THIS CONVERSATION JEREMY DID TELL ME THAT WE SHOULD NOT TALK ABOUT IT IN THE HOUSE IN CASE THE HOUSE WAS BEING BUGGED"

But hang on a minute Julie, according to you JB has just fessed up about how he arranged for MM to carry out the murders and yet according to you he also believed the house was bugged thus incriminating himself.  Isn't that what's commonly referred to as 'locking the stable door after the horse has bolted'? 

If some wish to treat JM as a credible prosecution witness that's up to them but they won't be convincing me she was anything other than unreliable.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=284.0;attach=1112

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=284.0;attach=1114

All you are doing is demonstrating you are too biased to approach this case in a rational manner.

1) Your claim that EP fed Julie everything is complete hogwash. The details she told about Jeremy plotting to kill his family by fire but changing it to shooting them and pretending Sheila did it came from Julie herself.  You have zero evidence to suggest police and family fed such to her.

2) You keep ignoring that the family and police believed Jeremy committed the crimes himself.  they didn't suspect he had hired a hitman. They would not have prompted a hitman story from her let alone to name a hitman who in short order could establish the tale false.  Jeremy had no alibi police and Julie had no reason to suggest someone  other than Jeremy himself committed the murders

3) Jeremy didn't believe the house was bugged.  Jeremy didn't want to provide more detail about the murders fearing he would give away that he committed them himself so he made up the claim that the house might be bugged and they needed to stop talking about it as an excuse to stop talking about it.  Jeremy LIED to Julie about hiring MacDonald to kill his family. He didn't fear police hearing the tale because it was a lie. He knew it was a lie and that if it got back to police that upon investigating it they would determine it was false.  He wouldn't care if police had been listening but he knew they weren't.  His lie was to be used against Julie.  This lie:

A) fooled Julie into thinking he was less cold blooded than he actually was
B) fooled Julie into thinking that there was a hitman who would go after her if she told police anything
C) intended that if she went to police anyway despite the fear then police would find out this tale was false by investigating MacDonald and his financials and not believe anything Julie said from that point forward.

These are logical reasons why Jeremy made up the hitman story. Neither you nor any other Jeremy supporters can come up with a single rational reason why someone other than Jeremy would make up the hitman claim.

Jeremy had no alibi so police had no reason to invent a hitman story period let alone to pick MacDonald as a mark.
For the same reason Julie herself had no reason to make up a hitman story.  If Julie were simply a pissed off girlfriend she would have said he admitted to committing the murders himself. "He called me before the murders saying he was going to kill his family and make it appear that Sheila did it, then called me around 3AM saying he had carried out the murders"  That would be sufficient. He really did call her before and after and it would just be his word against hers of what they discussed.  That's what someone lying would make up.  Not a long involved tale of him graduating from burning the place down to shooting them and especially not a hitman story. 

People who choose to believe that Julie made up a hitman story though it makes no sense do so not because of evidence and logic but because of their own internal bias and subjective feelings.  As such they can't justify their views and have a hard time even explaining why they believe such.

“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline adam

Re: Why Rivlin QC rightly told the jury to dismiss Julie Mugfords testimony
« Reply #55 on: April 11, 2016, 07:25:43 PM »
Reasons why Julie or the police would not introduce MM.

MM was innocent.

MM may have an alibi.

MM may sue the police.

MM may take revenge on Julie.

Julie said she was scared of what MM would do to her.

There were no advantages in bringing up MM.

A lot of Julies WS had things which Julie would almost certainly have only got from Bamber. Showing he was the killer.  Recent TAC. So why introduce MM ?

It was not believable that MM would carry out the massacre for £2,000.

It would be Julie's word against both Bamber's and MM's.

Julie and/or the police were already trying to put one innocent man behind bars. Why try to do two ?

Introducing MM is still trying to frame Bamber. It would be easier to just say Bamber said he did it.

A lot of Julies alleged false WS was factually correct. Such as times or places her and Bamber went to. Both pre and post massacre. The rest was her word against Bamber's. Introducing such an outrageous lie about MM in the middle of this makes no sense.

Bamber had no alibi for the 11pm - 3pm period. So no reason to bring in MM.

If MM had no alibi, he may have been found guilty.

MM being found to not be involved undermined the whole prosecution case.

There are several reasons why Bamber would bring up MM to Julie. Recent TAC. Therefore it is only credible that he is on her WS because that is what Bamber told her.

If the police investigated MM a bit. They would find out he was a plumber !

If it was just Julie attempting to frame an innocent Bamber, this was an almost impossible undertaking. Recent TAC. Why make things harder for herself by bringing up a man who had nothing to do with the family ?

If the police decided to attempt to frame Bamber after one month, they would have to ask Julie to lie. When her lie about MM was exposed, Julie may panic and come clean about everything.

The police's framing attempt was delicately relying on a 20 year old woman as a main witness. Surely all the alleged lies they put on her WS, should be watertight. Rather than including a ridiculous lie.

The police attempting to frame Bamber would not even know who MM was.

Julie agreeing with the police to create a false WS, would let them dictate the WS contents. So would not bring up MM. The police would not know MM so would also not bring him up.

The prosecution case at court was that Bamber committed the massacre. So why leave their main witness exposed when testifying ?

MM testified in court, highlighting his innocence. Which meant several minutes spent by a witness in court undermining  the prosecution case. The police would have expected this to happen. So a bad idea to put him on Julie's WS.

Either MM had an alibi and was innocent. Or had no alibi and may have been wrongly convicted. Either way, there are no advantages for Julie or the police.